Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Amy Sillman: Embracing the Unknown: The Art of Improvisation in Studio Practice
What happens when an artist's "unit" of work is rooted in "trouble"? Join us as we explore this fascinating concept through the insights of Amy Sillman, uncovered in an enlightening Art21 episode. We dive into the gripping narrative of how tension and contradiction can be both a hurdle and a muse, shaping the creative grammar that artists use to articulate their vision. By reflecting on Sillman's methodology and the wisdom of experienced artists, we uncover the power of understanding and defining our own unique artistic foundations.
Have you ever thought about the intimate relationship between an artist and their materials? Our journey continues as we traverse the dynamic landscape of artistic mediums, from the smell of fresh paint to the thrill of finding the perfect object in a thrift store. We emphasize the importance of experimentation, pushing boundaries, and feeling the materials in your hands. Like relationships tested through trials and imperfections, the artist's connection to their mediums evolves, leading to unexpected innovations and a renewed passion for creation.
Can embracing imperfections in your work actually propel you forward? We wrap up by reflecting on the significance of documentation and the evolution of one's artistic journey. Drawing inspiration from unconventional tools and the stories of transforming unsold pieces, we highlight the beauty of unpredictable art-making. By documenting progress and embracing both control and spontaneity, artists can continuously improve and grow. Balancing moments of struggle with bursts of inspiration, we stress the need to stay energized and committed, always pushing the boundaries of our creative potential.
Watch the Art21 video here: Amy Sillman Art 21
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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
So, nathan, of course, about 30 minutes before we're about to start this episode, I had an epiphany. And so what did that make me do? It made me sprint into my 180 degree studio, cut a, cut, a stretcher bars set of stretcher bars, put it together and stretch a small canvas so that I could put some clear primer on it and ensure that it's dried by the time that we stopped recording. So I'll do my best not to lift my arms in the episode for anybody watching video on YouTube or Spotify, because I I'm soaked. And now I'm in my office and I have the air conditioner turned off so that we don't have audible noise, and so the heat is starting to build, and basically what I'm saying is I just got myself into a lot of trouble, and that really is going to lead into an incredible quote we have coming up.
Speaker 1:I love this. So when you and I talk about planning episodes, we kind of go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and I think this is a great piggyback off of the learning episode we had on the last one, because you and I both discovered an art 21 episode basically at the same time, on the same day. That made us go. Oh my goodness, we have to talk about Amy Sillman and that episode.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. And speaking of our previous episode on being a student of the game, this is one of the I would argue one of the easiest ways to soak up a ton of wisdom around credible artists, their practice, the way that they think about their work, which we'll get into with this first quote. So let's just jump in, go ahead and hit us.
Speaker 3:I used to always ask my students what is your unit? You know, there's an atom, there's an inch, there's an hour, there's a day, there's a hand, there's a year. What is your base unit? Because I'm assuming that everybody's is totally different and they would give me these beautiful answers that were super concise, you know, like one person would just say it's one hour. Whatever they said, I would take it seriously and I thought, like how do you build the language out of those units? Because everyone's kind of making up a grammar for their own work.
Speaker 3:And what's your unit? I don't know, I can't even answer the question. I think my unit is trouble. You go to trouble, then you get out of trouble, then you get back in trouble. So trouble or not trouble, getting to it and getting away from it and getting from one trouble to the other. Trouble is the unit. I'm always pretty much looking for something that contradicts the layer that came before, creating a certain kind of tension and creating something that feels like it sort of holds together and it's sort of falling apart at the same time and creating something.
Speaker 1:So that's Amy Sillman, an incredible artist, educator, printmaker, drawer, has been around New York for a very, very long time as an educator. Right, she's talking about how she always presents these ideas to her students and asks them well, what's your unit? And I think, try to get them to really focus on something, some reason why they're creating where they're creating, from what they're trying to say, and kind of packaging that all together in something. And obviously she's got a lot of little broad answers. But as a great educator, you are always learning from your students and the things they tell you, which I think is why she's asking that question, because it's making her dig into the answers and that's causing her, as somebody who's continuing to educate herself, to grow in her work and how she thinks about things.
Speaker 1:And I love how the interviewer says well, what's your unit, amy? And she goes I don't know. And then she goes. I know it's trouble and that to me not an epiphany or highly prophetic, but it went. Yep, I absolutely am right there with her trouble. I freaking love that as a unit.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's two parts of this quote, ty, that I think are really interesting to examine. One is the whole idea that she begins with of just creating a grammar for your own work. A grammar for your own work, I mean. I think as artists, we're all trying to find a way to I don't want to say standardized, but have a framework for how we think about the work that we're doing, and I think that's a very practical way to approach the process of making work, because we do have a lot of conversations with ourself around what am I doing here, what's my approach? Sort of these. If, then scenarios of if I get in trouble, when I create trouble for myself, then I dot, dot, dot, and so I just really like that idea in general, setting aside for the moment the idea of trouble, but just the idea of really thinking about for each of us as artists, as creatives, what is our own grammar for our own work, how do we think about our work?
Speaker 2:And I would say again, just piggybacking on our last episode, I think this is one of the greatest benefits of doing things like this, and by like this I mean watching and listening to other artists, phenomenal artists like Amy, who have been doing it for quite some time, hearing how the language they use when they think about art in general and their work specifically.
Speaker 2:I don't know about you, but I have a ton of moments, even just in this, whatever, this is 11-minute video that everybody needs to watch for sure. Maybe pause this and go listen to it, watch it or wait till after the episode, but definitely spend some time with it. But this and many others like it. I have so many moments where just like, oh yeah, that's it, right, that's yes, that's how I think about it, and much like the same way that when we talk about, I think about it. And much like the same way that when we talk about how we are going to be influenced by the work that we like the best, the work that we're consuming, how important it is and you talk about this all the time the importance of just looking at a lot of art. I think this is a very similar idea, where the benefits of listening to a lot of artists talk about how they think about their work is incredibly valuable, because it gives us additional language to process and think about our own practice.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's one of the things that we're we hear from artists all the time in their studios, whether it's beginning, emerging, whatever level of art you're at is oh my gosh, I just want to feel more freedom in the studio. I want to feel less burden to finish a piece or less burden to create something new, or I just want to go in there with like this freedom and just make stuff and not feel pressure to have to kind of perform for myself. And I think I understood this. But hearing her say it, like you say, listening to other artists like helps you so much, because I went, hadn't even thought about the fact that when she said so, trouble or not trouble, getting to it and getting away from it, and getting from one trouble to the other, like that's what she's always doing hitting the trouble, finding another one, searching. But for me I was like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm always trying to embrace new challenges in my work and I really am searching for uncertainty and trouble so that I can create more trouble out of it. Cause what does that do? It kind of gives me a little bit of freedom to kind of breathe and not feel burdened by trying to force something to work and that's why I've chosen certain ways of creating through different types of forms and tools and things which we'll talk about later today. Because I want that uncertainty, I want new trouble, because maybe I can create a brand new idea out of that bit of trouble that ends up existing on the canvas and that only comes from perspective True.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And perspective comes from paying attention.
Speaker 2:Yes, I had a moment recently where I was looking back at a piece and a couple of moments that I really really liked, and then I was thinking about how those came to be. And then I remember the day that that happened and feeling like I was completely lost right, that I had no compass or true north around the work or how it was developing. And so when I talk about perspective, really what I'm talking about is realizing that we can use our past experiences to coach our current and future selves in the moment, Meaning that and I remind myself of this constantly, I'm sure you do as well which is when we feel like we're in trouble in the moment, when we feel like something's not working, it's like, oh yeah, well, that's okay. It's okay to feel that way because this what's happening right now could produce something in the future that really does work, that really does Right. So not getting too connected to how we feel, you know, in the moment. We've talked about this before, but I think it's really important to realize that.
Speaker 2:I'll just keep this in first person, because I'm not sure if this is universal or not, but, like I remind myself all the time, how I feel in the moment while I'm creating is not indicative of how good the work's going to be or how useful you know those, those marks or layers or whatever it is you know might be, and that and that goes in both directions, right. There's days when I'm just, you know, had had eight hours of sleep. It's 72 degrees outside, the sun is shining. I'm fully caffeinated, I'm just like hell. Yeah, I'm killing it.
Speaker 2:Right, well, yeah, you'd love that right now, wouldn't you? Um and uh, you know you come back the next day or you'll go. Oh, that actually wasn't that good. I was just feeling good and having a good day. But the opposite is also true, right, there's days when I feel like crap, I'm down, I'm tired, I, you know whatever. Fill in the blank with whatever little thing I might be whining about on that particular day or feeling sorry for me. But, like you know, look back and be like oh okay, that wasn't like a fun, enjoyable day, you know, in the studio, but it did produce work that I'm actually really excited about. So not confusing how we feel with how productive not to use that term or misuse that term but how useful that time in the studio could be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and trouble right is a challenge with your work or your medium, right, it could be a mental challenge, could be a physical medium or technique challenge medium, right, it could be a mental challenge, it could be a physical medium or technique challenge. It's mistakes that mess up that thing that you're really trying to do and it's just not coming out the way you see it. In your head it's coming out completely opposite and also contradictions. Oh, I meant to do that and something else happened completely and really right. What we talked about last episode, that artist who's continuing to educate and learn all of that is going to feed in right and be a catalyst for change and evolution and new ideas through those moments of trouble.
Speaker 1:I embrace those so much and I'm always teaching artists and telling artists to embrace those things right Because, like you said, you either come to the studio on fire or you come worn out. You either create something really really crappy one day and something really strong that moves another day, and those can completely happen in opposite instances and things. And I think just being able to feel a little bit more alive in freedom for our growth and for the expectations of what we may be doing is just embracing what she's saying, just embracing that, letting it happen, letting it flow, but growing each step of the way, which I know is something we're always encouraging. When you walk away from the studio, no matter where it is, walk away knowing you grew today, yeah, even if the day sucked and it was horrible and everything looked like shit, you can walk away knowing I am better than I was when I got into the studio, and I think that's what embracing the trouble really, really is.
Speaker 2:Just that idea of marks were made, layers were added or subtracted, as we'll talk about in a little bit here. But something happened and you talk about that word. You know tension, the tension that's created in the work itself, the tension that we experience internally, and the way that that gets resolved is interesting. It does lead to growth of ourselves and the work as a whole, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Part of doing improvisational work is pitting yourself against the materials and the resistance that they offer and trying to figure out how to make something happen where you're both working with the materials and also very much working against them and questioning them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, I love this one.
Speaker 2:Yes For a lot of reasons, yep, working with so many different types of materials. That's one of the reasons why I'm drawn to always looking for the next thing that I'm going to use in my work is because I love working with material that has already lived a life, or lives as what it was intended to be. For anyone not familiar with my work, I use a lot of repurposed material that I that I find and then alter in in a variety of different ways, but I really think it doesn't matter what. Whatever you're using as your, as your, mediums of choice. I think about it a lot as a relationship between myself and the material, and it is it's it's a push and a pull. It's sometimes we're working hand in hand and we myself and the materials have the same idea about where it's supposed to go, and other times, more often, if I'm being honest, it's very much a contentious relationship for quite some time.
Speaker 2:You know there is a what. What do you have to? What do you material have to say? How can we discover together what there is here, you know? And so when she talks about trying to figure out how to make something happen, where you're both working with the materials and very much working against them and questioning them. Back to that idea of asking questions. You know, what could you be, what? What were you questions? What could you be, what were you before, what could you be in the future and how could the relationship that we have in the process of trying to make something here, what could that reveal about the material itself? And help me say what I'm trying to say as a whole? Overall, right, but it's a conversation, it's a back and forth, it's absolutely a dialogue.
Speaker 1:Well, and there's 100% resistance with material, because material can only do as much as it can do. Yeah, right, so there are moments where you are going to take paint medium, whatever as far as it can go and it can't go any further. Whatever as far as it can go and it can't go any further. Yeah, that's why I'm always encouraging other artists Try everything, try it all. If you primarily work in paint, put the paint in your hands and feel the difference between every type of paint. What does a pasto feel like? What does an oil paint feel like? What does acrylic, what does a more expensive acrylic feel like? What does a student acrylic paint feel like? What does a acrylic feel like? What does a student acrylic paint feel like? What does a gel feel like? What does molding paste feel like? Feel it, touch it, know it. That way, you kind of know how that material may respond on canvas and what it may or may not be able to do when you start to create with it.
Speaker 1:Now, on the other hand, with somebody who's mixed media, it's let's go as far as we can go, right, let's find every type of material we can find at Home Depot, at the art store in the backyard, at the dump, in the trash can and let's play, play, play, play, because the more you have learned and tried, the more you have in your arsenal to possibly solve a problem or some trouble.
Speaker 1:When you get there, it may arise and go. You know what Glad I messed with cement a few months ago because cement would work. Perfect for what I really am trying to get out of this acrylic paint with molding paste, and it just doesn't have the right feel or texture to me. So I think for me it's really being responsive and being able to adapt during your processes and think through. Just like she says, you have to work with the material, but you're also working against it, because oftentimes we're trying to do more than the material will allow us to do. So we have to go, try new things and new ideas, and that's probably for you and I, one of the most exciting parts of being an artist. Something you and I love to do more than anything is just keep trying new stuff. It's the best.
Speaker 2:It's the best we were. The family was. We were in the city yesterday for our youngest birthday. She loves thrifting, so we're walking downtown and anyway I saw what I think was probably some type of a filter. I don't know what its application was. It was just sitting next to this trash can and I kind of stopped and I looked. My wife and both daughters were like keep, no, no, Dad, keep going.
Speaker 3:Please keep walking.
Speaker 2:A lot like I have to say to Leo you know, if we're walking and he's sniffing around something that I don't want him to start eating, like keep going. No, but it's just that it that an insatiable curiosity like what would happen. You know, when I slice that up, when I whatever heated it up, carved it, whatever, manipulate it in some way. But you know, when you were talking to, I was thinking about, like in a lot of ways, the relationship that we have with, with our mediums, with our, with our material. It's a lot like the relationships that we have with other people in that the strongest bonds that we have I mean, if you think about the people that you're, whatever the five people you're closest to friends, family, partners, whatever it might be those relationships are strong because they've been tested, because we have experienced things together that were imperfect, that were outside the lines, that were not just an average day. That's how we learn who we are individually and who we are together in terms of our relationship. And so, when it comes to materials, I'm a big fan of encouraging everybody to not just use material, but misuse material To your point get it in your material, but misuse material to your point, like, absolutely get it in your hands, get it in your fingernails, right Like, see what happens when you, when you do things that are, you know, not written on the, on the, on the package, the back of the box, just to you never know, just just to push it right, see how far you know you can put. You can always come back, you can always come back to like you know you can put. You can always come back, you can always come back to, like you know, back inside the lines, back for its intended purpose. And again, I don't know how much of this applies to what everyone's you know doing or not, but I think that there's a version of this that is useful for, you know, anyone who's trying to explore, you know, new territory.
Speaker 2:Part of the video that we're talking about here, you know, she talks about how she does have a few brushes in her studio, but most of what she uses are, you know, not traditional materials. You know what I'm saying and I actually I would love to hear you talk about that, because I actually, you know, tell the story about how, when, when did you start using cardboard and kind of what led to that. I think that would be. This would be a good sort of you know little use case. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think I've always fought with materials because I want I've always wanted an unexpected thing to come out, which is why, after studying a lot of the more modern Japanese calligraphists who would have these brushes tied to pulleys, that the brushes were like 10 feet tall with a three or four foot actual hair and brush tip, they dip an ink and they'd run it across this pulley on this massive piece of paper in a studio, and I would go okay, they have control with their body and gesture, but they don't know how the pulley is going to swing right or left and their movement, how fast they're going, and also there's ink dripping off other parts of the brushes while they're moving. And then when you'd look at that 20-foot piece at the end, it was perfectly imperfect and I think I went that's what I want in my work. So I started using really long brushes and things with a lack of control, so that I'm getting some imperfections out of the things I'm doing. Cardboard back this is, I think, 2018, maybe 2019 from a solo show that didn't sell any work in North Carolina and all the work came back and all the boxes and I cut up all the boxes to throw them out and I went. I'm going to make some cardboard paintings.
Speaker 1:So I just started cutting them out and building all these cardboard canvases and stacking cardboard and ripping it and painting on it and I didn't like how one looks, so I pulled it off and it had. I was using paint to glue it and it left a mark and and I went, huh, I wonder what that would do if I started doing that as transfer on pieces. So I had a couple pieces I was working on and so I started just kind of painting on cardboard and then pressing it down and pulling off as a transfer, and I was doing it with other things and I went I kind of like that idea. I need to think more about that Fast forward.
Speaker 1:That's a major part of my actual creating, and creation today is using material that's not an art material, using it in a way that it's never really supposed to be used for and it's creating something that I can't control. I can control it up to a point, yeah, but as I pull it off, there's going to be a surprise somewhere in there, and that for me has just become. I love that. It creates so much trouble for me and it's so freaking fun, that surprise, and so, really, that tension exists now between using a material that you don't really know how it's going to work every time.
Speaker 2:And I don't know. It's fun, I love it. It's so fun and it's a really good testament to the importance and the value of leaving space in our practice to be surprised and to chase those surprises down, you know again, like you know, I think, one of the, I had a studio visit earlier this week with about half a dozen artists who came by. They were part of a little coven little group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of my current mentees in my program.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, yes, and so they came by and we were having an interesting conversation. But one of the things that came up is I believe the question was something related to you know, how do you make sure that trying different things doesn't, you know, ruin a piece? And I said I'm always happy to ruin a piece, I'm not happy, I'm always okay with ruining a piece. Yep, because I have that abiding belief that it is in service to pushing the work forward. So I think that, to your point, when something happened, when one of those surprises happen, and maybe you chase it down on what you're working on at that moment Maybe not, but capturing that and doing something with it, starting other little studies or other little things on the side, but doing it I think it's close.
Speaker 2:Now, I don't know, banking ideas is valuable. But again, back to like, back to my idea of, or my point of, not worrying about ruining the piece or ruining the timeline that I had in mind for finishing the piece that I was working on. I'm not going to forget or if I did, it probably was worth forgetting. Anyway I'm not going to like lose track of where I was at on that. I can look at it and see like here's, here's, what's next. But chasing down those little discoveries, I think, is so, so valuable, because we just never know which one is going to become the next big thing that we're going to be able to mine for years and entire bodies of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and there's. That's the balance between control and spontaneity. Yep, right, if you're completely trying to control your work, it's going to be really, really frustrating, because then you're just trying to make a finished piece all the time and it just doesn't work that way all the time. Right. But you want to balance that spontaneity of trying new things with things that have been working and things that have really been growing, and keeping those in while you're adding those new ideas and then those new things into it. And, like you said, you're going to walk away at the end of the day and know that you just learned so much more. And all artists discovery you're going to be discovering something that's leading to the next jump and the next big thing. And I love let's listen to another quote by Amy, cause she's really going to go into these things pretty incredibly.
Speaker 3:You know it's not perfect. It shows it scrape downs and it shows its revision and it shows its finickiness, but it also shows its openness and this maybe vain attempt to like push further or dig deeper.
Speaker 1:Oh, nathan, push further or dig deeper. Wow, that I mean. Come on, and I love that she says this may be a vain attempt. I mean it's like to push further or dig deeper, showing the imperfections and allowing them to be seen as a form of openness.
Speaker 2:What you just pointed out, like the acknowledgement that it may be a vain attempt, I think is actually really, really important. Just sitting in that place of like this may not work. If we were putting odds on it, it probably won't, but it might, but it might. And even if it doesn't, it's going to lead to something else.
Speaker 1:Well and I think too, it's like when she's talking about this, she's talking about showing the process in the final piece yeah, and that final work that's on the gallery wall, that's up there, and acknowledging that there's mistakes in it. It's not a perfect piece. There aren't just absolute perfect shininess or corners or things. She's allowing the imperfections to also speak for themselves, which is something I absolutely embrace in my work as well, and early on I know I've talked about this before I used to circle and put little arrows on mess ups and scripts and I'd put oops or a dumb pencil mark or little things like that, just to kind of be vain and sarcasm for myself of acknowledging I made mistakes but actually really like this.
Speaker 1:I might even like this better than the other pieces that I really tried to control in that painting. Right, well, how do you, how do you feel about revision? Because part of this, too, is talking about. She says it shows its revisions and shows its finickiness, you know, and she's working over and working over and working over and constantly taking away and building upon and taking it away. There's construction and there's deconstruction of the piece, and I know you and I both do some construction and deconstruction within our work, and so I don't know if I consider my deconstruction revision.
Speaker 2:Oh I, absolutely do Okay, it's probably my favorite part, like.
Speaker 2:So. It's funny because when the earlier quote that we talked about as far as what's your unit, I think the first thing that came to mind for me was excavation, or extraction, which is the removal, which is the scraping down. Right like I, I've thought a lot about the moments. I had one earlier this week where I finally got to it is it's like, it's like my reward for the work that it takes to build up different layers of different material, which can also be fun but is also more just like the sort of like task oriented work part of the process for me. But when I get to burn, carve, scrape, sand, when I get to pull those things off with a general idea about what's going to be revealed, but nothing resembling actual knowledge or certainty, that's what I create, that's what I look forward to.
Speaker 2:So when I hear the word revision, I think about addition and subtraction. That's one of the things that I love about working three-dimensionally, or at least working on services, where I have in most cases at least half an inch, if not more than that, to carve back down into or more material to put on top. But it's just that process of discovery, that process of excavation of what's under here. I've got an idea because I put it there, but I have no idea how it's going to express itself when those layers are removed and when that's carved down. I don't know if I answered your question.
Speaker 1:But is that revising? Is that revising the piece or is that continually? Even though you're deconstructing, you're still building the piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I kind of reject that word, revision in general, because revision to me, when I think about revision, I think about all right, I've got a very specific intended outcome here. I'm revising an essay where I'm not communicating my ideas effectively, so I need to revise the way that I'm, because I have an intended message or idea. You know that I'm attempting to communicate and the previous revision wasn't doing the job right. So I've got to revise what I've got to better communicate something in particular with the desired outcome in mind, and that's not. You know, that's, that's not my process. My my well, and that's what I was getting, and that's what I was getting at.
Speaker 1:is that I don't. I don't see myself as a revisionist when it comes to my work, right, and that's. That's a beauty of art. We're all different in the way we make things. Right? Amy is saying she revises and rebuilds and then she goes.
Speaker 1:I want to clean that up some more. I want to take this to a different spot. Whereas I am like I'll get to a point where I feel like the work is done and if I don't like it, I don't go fix it. I paint over it and I start over yeah, completely gone, and the canvas is flipped over and it's something completely new. So that but that's my process, and I'm not saying either is right or wrong, because I know there are plenty of.
Speaker 1:I have plenty of friends who are incredible painters and they revise and revise, and revise, you know, and then all of a sudden, when they really feel strong about okay, I'm done working on it and it's in its finished state for me, if I don't like it, it's gone, it does not get revised, it does not get fixed, it doesn't get anything addition, it didn't work, it's time to move on to the next thing.
Speaker 1:But that's just me personally, and there is that. That's that paradox that she's talking about too right, there's a paradox between striving for perfection while embracing imperfection as well. There's so many ways to try and think through time with our work when we're thinking about this imperfection, the perfection building, discovering, excavating all these things, and really the only way to really show us how we have grown, how we have embraced, how we have taken things from one place to the next, right on that journey, that discovery, that map making of our career, is really to create a big stock of documentation of what we're doing, where it came from and that journey that it went on, and I think Amy has something really good to say about that.
Speaker 3:I always take photographs in my studio, like with my phone, and just see myself at night, like what the sort of progression or animation is.
Speaker 1:So there's really for such a simple thing, right, taking photographs in the studio with the phone and looking at them at night to see her progression, whatever. It's such a simple thing, but I think it's so valuably important, and I have. I myself, after I read Austin Kleon's book Show your Work, started documenting everything I do and really as a way to create kind of an encyclopedia by year of my progress, my journey, techniques, things I've tried, things I played with, and for me to just go back and look at how time has truly affected the development of my work and its things and how you can see the narratives of life. Right, because that's what being a contemporary painter is You're showing now, right, you're creating now and you're showing now and today, and so I'm able to go back and go oh, wow, yeah, 2014. No more, no wonder I was making my work like that. These things were happening, life was this way, the world was this way and I hadn't known these things yet. Oh my gosh, 2018. Look at that work, look at the way that it grew, look at the things I started doing.
Speaker 1:And I always tell any of my artists in my program document everything, even if you're not going to share it. I don't care if you don't share it on Instagram. I don't care if you don't have accounts that you're sharing stuff all the time. Do it for yourself. Do it for Our last episode learn, be educated. You need to be doing the same thing with your own work that you're doing with all these other artists that you admire's work as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That was another part of the conversation with the studio visitor this week was, I forget somebody had asked me if, you know, recording things or having the phone on the tripod was distracting or if it, you know, pulled me out of flow, and I said not really just because I'm used to it. Now I maybe did a little bit at first, but with the goal in mind of pushing the work as far possible, as quickly as possible. I want to accelerate my learning curve, and so I know that even if I'm not going to share it which I often don't I mean I do share some, but that really is not my primary motivation for recording these things.
Speaker 2:I watch back clips all the time especially when it's an in the moment free flowing accident or intuitive thing like that.
Speaker 2:Beautiful mistake, the beautiful mistake, and then you go back and look at something that you're like well, that's that. Actually, that's the, that's the strongest moment of this entire piece. How did I do? How did I do that? I'm not one that takes notes, necessarily. I'm not. That's not, that's not uh, uh. About the work itself, I should say or, or in the moment I'm not writing recipes or things like that, but absolutely, you know, there's, there's enough in those video clips to be able to remember like, oh yeah, that's the day that it was raining and because it was raining, it impacted the way that the whatever would receive the flame and the marks that were made as a result, or whatever it might be. So that is the value, for sure, of documenting your process. I don't know, I don't do digital art much at all, but once in a while I'll. I'll open up a procreate on the iPad if I'm on a plane and just kind of mess around, but there's a feature on there where you can just automatically records, yeah, a time lapse, right yeah.
Speaker 2:It's so fun to watch. It's so fun Cause it's cause it's right there. You're like, oh yeah, and it back. But there's some interesting things that can be observed and learned about one's process in doing that. So, whether it's with photographs or video, or maybe you are somebody who really wants to take notes, but that's so, so valuable, I think, to a person's progression artistically.
Speaker 1:Well, and if you watch the Art in 21 episode, which I suggest everybody does, we'll put the link in everything. What Amy did and I don't know if this was on purpose or not or because she does photograph everything, but she was able to do that show where she showed the actual progress from the first layer to the last layer of a painting in photographs in prints Pretty freaking cool. Layer of a painting in photographs in prints Pretty freaking cool. Like I thought and I don't know if she was just going through her stuff one day, because she documents everything that much that she went well, that'd be a badass show. Yeah, I'm going to take pictures of the entire journey of one painting and they're all right, they were good photographs. It wasn't, like you know, crooked yellow light studio photographs are all really well done, so she can make prints of it and it showed from one layer to the next and they created this easel system that put all of those prints across the entire room in the middle. So you, I mean that was that's amazing, that's breakthrough, right. That's that experimentation and doing something. She's doing something that's tech related within the work, not with the purpose of creating work from that, but then because she's experimenting and doing things.
Speaker 1:That then got involved. It became a work of art, yeah, so you never know. That's the thing, right? That's why we're always encouraging you all play, try, do everything. If you have different loves and things you want to do, mess around, see what happens. Who knows what could come from it? I mean, this was a whole show for her. Those prints from those photographs of a painting taken with her iPhone.
Speaker 1:It all became a series and became an incredible show, and I love that. That's just beautiful, and this is why we added this to this episode. This quote from Amy was take pictures of your stuff, capture what you're doing for yourself. Yeah, we want you to be educated. We want you to understand your work in a really, really great way so you can talk about it and be confident talking about it. Uh, in arenas where you may have the opportunity to discuss and talk about your work, studying your own work, taking pictures, videos, whatever you want to do document it so that you have it and so that you can learn more about your process and how you're doing things, and it just becomes second nature in your head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Ty, I'd like to close with the quote that might just have excited me the most of this whole video so good. Let's just play it, all right.
Speaker 3:And the next thing depends on the thing play it slippage between control and finesse and form and wanting it to be good and constantly adjusting things and trying to make it better, and between just like first thought, best thought, like let it all hang out, like do a thing. See what you're surprised by that tension is the tension of me making my work so, yeah, so good, that's so good.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful. It's beautiful again, just for the whatever the fifth time of this episode. Like listening to other artists who, I mean, she has been thinking about her work for 60 years, maybe more, I don't know but listening to people who have had the time to really study their own work and understand it and have the language for what it's like for them. Again, it's so, so important because, like, oh yeah, like I mentioned earlier in the episode, that's it. That's how I think about it.
Speaker 2:That's oh yeah, yeah, that's what it is right, because we need to make. It's one of those things that you probably understood intuitively or kind of had a general sense of, but to actually put precise language to it, I think, is so, so valuable. So, yeah, the next thing depends on the thing before it. You know, dealing with mistakes. Let's talk about this whole idea of dealing with regret, because I think that's such an important thing that every one of us has.
Speaker 1:Sorry, f-bomb almost came out, so we almost got an explicit rating because I almost dropped an F-bomb right there. Oh the regret.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's real right, I mean, and it's something that. So, again, we think about the work, what are we trying to say with the work? What are we trying to do visually? But we also think about the process of making the work and anticipating how we're going to feel, not if, but when certain things happen. And one of the things that is going to happen in everybody's studio practice is that moment of regret of ah F.
Speaker 1:Oh God, no, let me do that again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's your thought process when you, when you heard that?
Speaker 1:Well, when I, when I was watching it for the umpteenth time I'm such a nerd and I'm such a visual person that and I've watched so many of these videos and I've written a few storyboards of creating ones for other artists and things that kind of follow that pattern of art 21.
Speaker 1:I saw me walking in from around the corner with a cappuccino to hand to her to sit down and go god, let's freaking dive in more yeah let's dive in more to that till, you know, because, oh it, oh, regret, golly, the killer of dreams in the artist's mind sometimes, and it's and I'm not talking about just art your art journey outside of the studio, I'm talking about in the studio. Yeah, that it always happens to me at the end of the body of work, like I'll create a body of work for an exhibition, a show or just for myself, where I'm going with new ideas and I'll create it's usually between 15 and 35, 40 paintings when I create a body of work and I'll start so strong in my head yes, okay, yeah, I'm resolving these questions and I'm answering these problems and I'm getting into trouble and I'm finesse, and then all of a sudden I do the last three and I go those are the ones F me. I got 30 paintings. Now that should have been those three. Can I—oh God, no, let me do that again.
Speaker 1:It happens to me every time and I think, once I got comfortable with realizing, the next thing depends on the thing before it. Yeah, like she says, I went. No, I had to do those 30. Those 30 got me to these three which are leading to the next 20 or the next 30. If I hadn't have gone through those, that whole process of making all that work and getting to these last ones, I wouldn't have had myself confidently saying the next thing is now ready and it just led me there. That's my process, that's how I go through working in the studio and fighting that resistance and fighting regret is I know this is taking me to that next thing because it flushed itself out and all those things and it's now.
Speaker 1:It's the train reaction, it's a chain reaction. Each of those moments is just a chain reaction to the next artistic decision I'm going to make in the next body of work.
Speaker 2:And insert your favorite cliche here trust the process. But just knowing that, like, I think that there's, that it's back to that idea of perspective where it's a little bit like technology. As you were talking, I was thinking about how you know, when you're talking about creating that body of work and not getting to the thing until the very end, I think the perspective that comes from accepting that I don't yet have a way to resolve this particular challenge that I'm encountering with the work. But it's like technology, you know, it's like there are there are certainly thing, or medicine, for example where it's like it's known that the things that are needed to solve this particular problem they kind of exist but they're not quite refined enough to use for this particular application, whatever it might or whatever it might be. But it will exist, it will develop over time. We will get to a point where that will be there and so just accepting that, you know I don't, I don't have, I don't know about you, but I've got a number of pieces that have just been like I pulled one of them. Now have a thing, I'll be real specific. This piece I just didn't have what I needed to really resolve it in a way that made sense and since starting it, I mean this one's just been kind of hanging out in the maybe pile for a couple of years. I now know, because I started working with metal I'm like, oh yeah, now I've got it, now I have the language, now I have the thing to do it.
Speaker 2:The other big thing from that quote that, again, we've talked about so many times this is the value of listening to and reading autobiographies. Listening to other artists talk, it's not just you reading autobiographies. Listening to other artists talk, it's not just you. Even someone like Amy, who's done the work that she has the body of work tremendous still has those moments. So it's not necessarily going to make those moments of regret or any better. It's still going to suck in that moment, but having the perspective of like, oh, this is part of it, this is part of the path that I'm on, this is part of the journey that I've chosen to be on, and everybody experiences this a lot and will continue to, for sure, for the duration of the time that we get a chance to keep making stuff.
Speaker 3:Well, and she says it right here so on the big level and on the little level and on every level in between, yeah, how do you interpret that I had a couple of different big level, little level.
Speaker 2:How do you read that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean because she says the slippage between control and finesse and form and wanting to be good yeah, wanting it to be good, right, and constantly to be good yeah, wanting it to be good, right, and constantly adjusting things to make it better. So, on the big level, the I think it's done, it's ready to go to the tate. We'll use places that she's shown, for example whitney, the tate moma, the biggest places. Okay, on the big level, it's good. Yeah, I'm right, it's, it's good and it's ready to go out. I can send that to the exhibition at the Whitney, I can send it to this Biennale with this body of work.
Speaker 1:But then, on the little level, is well, is it for just something I'm making? To get me to the next thing, is it just the piece that's not going to leave the studio? I think that's a big level, but in the grand terms of the art world and where Amy is, that's a smaller level than sending it out to the Whitney or the Tate or to a Biennale or something. And then every level in between, that's maybe a gallery, maybe an art dealer, maybe whatever. So it's like there's control and finesse and you want it to be good and you're constantly adjusting things whether that's in that piece or the next piece or the next piece to improve it so that it's able to be on all those levels and you can go okay, I'm okay with it on all those levels. That's at least how I interpret it. No, I like that a lot.
Speaker 2:That's the other thing too. Ty is like this. What I'm about to share, it's not an antidote for regret, but it is a treatment for it. And the treatment for regret is back to the value of documenting our process, knowing that if we ruin a piece or if we cover something up that was magical, that we want to try to get back again. I think that's the value of documenting our process Because, while we'll never be able to necessarily create exactly the same thing I don't know about you, I probably wouldn't want to anyway do the exact same thing but there's oftentimes a mark, a gesture, a technique, a texture, fill in the blank, where, because I'll just talk about my own experience, because I've got the video that I can go and watch back, I can recreate the conditions that led to that, sure, and then I can just say, all right, I'm going, I'm going all in on this particular thing and I do it all the time, which was studies like I'll have okay, let's do eight different versions of this.
Speaker 2:That's actually where I will take a little bit of notes. I'll write in a post-it note what I did, the timing, the amount, the level of pressure, the tools, you know, whatever all the variables that that I might be be tweaking, but we can recreate the conditions that led to that thing and with enough experimentation that happy accident can then be integrated into our visual language. Going forward it can become a thing right that we can get back to a point where we can recreate that particular thing over and over again and it just becomes part of our overall toolbox that we can pull from as needed for different work going forward.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great point, nathan, because we want to grow, we want to evolve, we want to create new work, we want to be in this journey where we're just constantly discovering new ideas and things, but it doesn't mean that we completely abandon certain ideas and certain things that really worked for us last year, five years ago, 10 years ago even. You know, because they're part of you and you don't want to be creating the same exact paintings you were making 20 years ago. Hopefully, you've grown and you're creating new work, but I did. I just did this.
Speaker 1:Last month I went through and I was going through all my hard drives and I was organizing things by year and making sure all the videos were in place and each folder was labeled by the painting for the video that I took. And you know all that stuff Because I have folders for videos, I have folders for photos, and then I have them all separated by year 2014, 2015, 20. And then I have video photo and I was just making sure everything. But then I got caught and looking at the work and going, oh, I totally forgot about that little thing and, man, I really think that was a great idea Move it into the folder of things to think about folder and I started moving all these old paintings and old ideas in there, forgot about that texture, forgot about putting that in there.
Speaker 1:I forgot about those things and I went God those were. Why did I abandon that? Well, I was growing, I was moving and trying new things. It doesn't mean we don't reintroduce old techniques and older things that have worked for us before and by documenting you have the ability to know and remember and revisiting them, armed with all of the new knowledge, new techniques, new information.
Speaker 2:Who knows where that absolutely from? There, because of what you there, because of the information and ideas you've acquired and practiced and executed on in the meantime. Love it, yeah, absolutely. That feels like a good place to end for today. Yes, I'm ready to get in the studio.
Speaker 1:I'm fired up right now let's go.
Speaker 2:We say this all the time, but we really are just doing this. I mean, this is a, this is a a, both a selfless and a selfish pursuit. So I get, we get more energized and excited about what we're going to do. Uh, you know, as a result, which is what makes us fun and and why we're going to keep doing it. But I think we've shared a bunch of tangible takeaways.
Speaker 2:We don't need to spend too much time on this, but I think at the at the very end here, I think I'm just going to reiterate what we had said earlier, which is it's important for all of us to pay attention to, of course, the work, what we're doing visually, but also really pay attention to the practice and the process and the emotions and the thoughts, the feelings, you know, some of which might be positive, but a lot of which are going to be on the more negative or self-doubt side. And just continuing to develop our code, our mantra, our way of thinking about how we make the work, will inevitably lead to us making better work and pushing our work forward, getting closer to the best work that we're capable of making.
Speaker 1:Yep, love it. I gotta go. I gotta get in the studio. I can't take this anymore.
