Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Creating Shared Connections in Our Art. Lessons from Georgia O'Keeffe, Van Gogh and Nick Cave.
Ever had your Black Friday order turn into a comedy of errors, with just a single tube of paint arriving instead of the anticipated haul? Join us in our reunited episode as we kick things off with this true-life mishap, setting the stage for a deeper discussion about the role of vulnerability in our creative lives. This lighthearted tale leads us to reflect on the joys and challenges of celebrating a milestone birthday and how such personal experiences fuel our artistic endeavors.
Navigating the art world as an introvert or someone with anxiety can feel daunting, but overcoming these obstacles can lead to meaningful connections. Stories of studio visits and art residencies highlight how vulnerability is a cornerstone of building authentic relationships in the art community. By sharing these moments, we underscore the joy and enrichment that comes from engaging with like-minded individuals who not only understand but also elevate our artistic journeys.
The transformative power of vulnerability isn't just a personal endeavor; it's a catalyst for artistic freedom and authenticity. As we ponder profound questions, we draw parallels between human interactions and the emotional connections artists strive to make through their work. Reflecting on quotes from icons like Van Gogh and Georgia O'Keeffe, we discuss how embracing imperfections can lead to genuine artistic expression. As we look ahead to new creative goals, this episode encourages a fearless pursuit of art that is true and resonant, welcoming the unknown with open arms.
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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
Oh, Nathan, a little bit of peaches and herb for the morning. What a good way to kick it off.
Speaker 2:Yes, Ty, there's one perfect fit and sugar. This one is it. Oh yeah, Love it.
Speaker 1:I mean hey, 1978 brought us into this episode.
Speaker 2:Right, right it's good to have you back. It's good to see your face. It's good to be back. It's been too long since we've been able to hop on live. I owe you a big debt of gratitude and appreciation for carrying the load the last couple of months here, when I've been mostly MIA as far as the JMA life is concerned. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've been a little busy. You've got something going on that you've been pretty wrapped up in.
Speaker 2:You know, I told my wife yesterday that, uh, so it's Monday as we sit here and record this yesterday.
Speaker 1:It is Monday, yes.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean, there was a time there the last couple of months where even just what day it was would have been a. It would have taken me a minute, so I'm gonna put the correct answer. But I said this is like the first day I've been able to just exhale and just have a day where I lay around and get caught up. I haven't had a Sunday where I wasn't in the studio for at least 12 hours for at least yeah, at least six weeks. So it's been. It's been a ride, but excited to be back at it. Where do we start? You're going to share an idiot moment. Yeah, I did have an idiot.
Speaker 2:That's all our outline says is share, tie, share, idiot moment. I'm here for it.
Speaker 1:So how's my hair look?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I haven't. I've not had a. I haven't had a hat on. That's why, no, I know, but you got, you got. You got glorious hair. I always wear a hat. You got a glorious head of hair. You shouldn't cover that stuff up unless it's not washed. I'll just assume that you have your shower. It's definitely washed, it's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, my idiot moment. Moving on, so we have this thing in the United States during our holiday, thanksgiving on Friday. Thanksgiving falls on a Thursday and Friday is a day called Black Friday. I think it's pretty much international for shopping. A lot of people will use Black Friday deals, even internationally, because you can get cheap discounts. But anyways, if you don't have Black Friday, it's kind of a marketing ploy for businesses to make a lot of money on a certain Friday.
Speaker 1:So I had been going through all my art websites and ordering places Blick and Jerry's and looking for art to order, anything that's at a superb discount, like canvas and stuff, and so I went to there's a paint company called Gaffrey and they're a small family owned, I believe. And so I went to there's a paint company called Gaffrey and they're a small family owned, I believe, and they make really heavy body acrylics and I'm a big heavy body acrylic guy and I'm always looking for ones that are even thicker than the other ones I use. So I found Gaffrey through one of my past artists in my program and went on. Their Black Friday sale was insane. So I loaded up my cart with a ton of paint at really steep discounts, made a really big order, so, pumped Knew it would probably be here in a week or two. And the order is delivered to the front of my house, to my doorstep, and I'm so pumped. I go out there and there's this tiny little box from Gaffrey sitting on my front porch. That was delivered and I'm thinking that's odd, it must be in multiple shipments or whatever. And so I open up the box and let me show you everything that I ordered. It is one tube of six ounce light pink.
Speaker 1:I don't know what the hell happened, but this is all that came. And in the receipt in the box, I went oh, let me check the order, it must be in two shipments. No, it was for one $6 tube of paint, nailed it. I don't know what I did, because I had a massive order. I had my mind fully prepped for what I was going to do with it, how I was going to play and mess around. I mean, it's sculptural acrylic, it's so thick, and so this is all I got, and with a great message don't eat the paint. But I don't know what I did. I'm assuming what happened was everything that I ordered must have already been gone by the time the order went through because it was Black Friday and I was a little late in the day to remember to order. I'm assuming that would happen, but it could probably just have been a moron move of, I don't know, canceling everything on purpose and then just ordering a six ounce. So, anyways, that's a good fun. Art idiot moment.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for your vulnerability.
Speaker 1:I appreciate it. I mean, hey, we've got to be vulnerable, right? I think we're going to talk about that a little bit today.
Speaker 2:Today we're going to share some stories, kind of a story of shared experience IRL that's how the kids say in real life, of which you and I have not had a tremendous amount of as a matter of fact. But we're going to share a story. We got a chance to spend the weekend together. I guess it's about almost exactly a month ago.
Speaker 1:Right, does that sound right? Not quite, yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, that's fast, but yeah, it does not seem like that long ago. We're going to share that story and just specifically how it pertains to our practice as artists, as creatives. Why don't you just set the table for your 50th weekend? Because it was quite the affair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my wife has been bugging me for the last year about what I'm going to do for my 50th birthday. What do you want to do? Do you want to travel? Do you want to go on a trip? I kept joking and saying I want to go to space, I want to jump on Elon or Richard Branson's space thing and go into space and to orbit. But I just couldn't figure it out because I mean, yeah, I want to do something, but I just didn't feel like really going. Oh, let's do this and let's put a plan together.
Speaker 1:So, post my birthday, my buddy Jeremy said, hey, what are we doing for your 50th? Like you didn't do anything, we need to do something. And so I ended up putting together a little trip up to his family's property in the North Dallas area of some lifelong friends and you got invited to that and it basically was a Now, just a little context Nathan, you and I have known each other for three years now, I think, or is it four, three or four years? But all the other friends that I invited to join me have been lifelong friends, some for 30 years, some for 20 years and so we all got together for the weekend up at my buddy's property.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was funny because. So y'all picked me up from the. You see how I picked that up when I was in Texas, did that y'all sound natural.
Speaker 1:You got a good y'all.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah. So you guys picked me up at the airport. We went to get some lunch and as we're sitting down and talking, it was you, me, Jeremy and Jake. And Jeremy asked me how long we had known each other and I said, well, by the time we get done eating lunch here, we will have spent more time in one of those presents than we ever had previously.
Speaker 2:We hung out that one time when I was down in your neck of the woods, but compared to the 20 or 30 years of history you had with everybody else, it was a very, very different dynamic. For sure, it was funny because when you asked me, I was honored and super excited to go. But I told my wife, hey, so Ty's having this 50th birthday party, it's going to be me, and what? Were there? Eight people altogether, I think. So Okay, so I said it's going to be me, Ty and six people I've never met before. And she goes, really. And I said, yeah, and she goes, and you're feeling good about going.
Speaker 2:And, just for context, the reason that she would say that is because, obviously, knowing me as well as she does, she knows that I am not a big fan of being on other people's schedule, especially when I'm in a place where I can't just wander or walk away or do whatever. She also knows I'm not a huge fan of small talk and whatever. I don't have the patience for it, as an introvert, to just be around. I like making new friends. I'm just not very good at it because I'm not that interested. That sounds terrible.
Speaker 2:There's probably a better way of saying that, but let's just go with that for now. I mean so you know, she knows if we're at like a wedding reception, she knows that there's always going to be at least a 20 minute gap where I'm just MIA just wandering around you know the, the event facility, just not being you know with, with people, probably looking at my phone or something like that to just get a breath, get a break. So when she heard I was going to be with you know uh, six people and you, uh, at a compound for an entire weekend that was very rigidly scheduled she's like how are you feeling about this? I was like we're going to do it, it's going to be, it's going to be great, and it actually was. But yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and tying that into that, this is going to be. We are going to have an art focus in this for everybody. So we are going to tie in all of our stories about this weekend into art things and not just things that Nathan and I did hanging out for really the longest first time we have in person, Although we spend a lot of time on our phones and zoom and FaceTime regularly.
Speaker 2:Our hope is a take of this episode. Is not cool guys? You hung out Great, yeah For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and there there's such an importance Like I know we talked about this over the weekend like just that importance of really feeling welcomed, because here you are, dropped in this new thing that you know nobody, you don't know what, you have no expectations, you don't know what's going on, where are we going to be? Where am I going to be sleeping? What am I going to be eating? What's this like? Am I just out in the middle of a farm? Like what's going on? You know there's all these things.
Speaker 1:But like that importance of feeling welcomed, yeah, it's just such an important thing in life. And translating that to the art world look, there's a, there's a great. That's a scary place when you don't know where you're going, what's happening, who you're going to be around, what you're going to do day in, day out and you're just kind of going to go with the flow, and that's the art world. It's a scary place. You don't know what to expect, we don't know what's out there, we don't know what's going on. And I think for any of you who are mature artists or who have been in the art world for a long time or have experienced the art world I just want to add, please be very welcoming to younger artists or more inexperienced artists than yourselves, because you should remember how hard it has been for you to get where you are. And so just being welcoming with advice, with knowledge or wisdom to younger artists is just incredible.
Speaker 1:And, man, when you see that new artist at an opening that you've never seen before, those new people or somebody that just keeps showing up but it's kind of standing against the wall, I can't tell you how incredible that feeling is. When you feel welcomed into that circle or into that room or into that group of people, it can do wonders for somebody, absolutely. There's a really great quote by the fabulous poet and author, maya Angelou, and she says people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. That's powerful. That's a pretty beautiful quote Because you know what I remember every single person that treated me like shit, that abused me. They're on a specific level, me right, they're on a specific level. But I also, man, I have, true, really formed emotional bonds to the people that just made me feel incredible and welcomed and appreciated.
Speaker 2:And it's pretty easy. It doesn't take that much to make somebody feel welcome, to make somebody feel special, and, considering that, wherever any of us might be at someone, if not a whole pile of folks threw down the ladder at some point to help, to make us feel welcome, to give us a piece of advice. I don't need to get into the story for today's purposes, but I'm dealing with a challenge I've never encountered before and I had a chance to reach out to some folks that I was connected to from Clubhouse back when that was a thing around the COVID times and just those connections and friendships that were made and that continue and just reach out. For hey need some help with this. Has anyone encountered this before? And getting multiple responses from folks pointing me in the right direction and helping the way that they were able to is just huge. It's just having those. But again, point being, it doesn't take much to respond. It doesn't take much to make people feel welcome. It's actually pretty easy.
Speaker 1:Well, and just a reminder, we've talked about this at length in our episodes Network your network is so vital and massive for you in the art world. You have to have a network and you need to be constantly building your network and expanding that network. And so what a better way to do that than by being a very welcoming person, a very appreciative person, a person who always says thanks, who always greets, who always is willing to give advice and show up right, not just be there for yourself, but to be there for the community and be there for everybody else as well first, and then let everything else fall into place after.
Speaker 2:And I think you think about what it takes to really make connections with people. Getting to our topic for today, but when we are willing to be vulnerable, when we're willing to just put ourselves out there and ask for help, that's a big part of it. You may have your antenna up and recognize that artist who's over in the corner by themselves because they've got some paint on their shoes and look like they're uncomfortable. And look like they're uncomfortable, but you may not, so it may be incumbent upon us, that person to get out of our comfort zone, go up and say hello, be vulnerable enough to say, hey, I don't know anybody here. What's your story? Right, and that's I mean. I would say you're more extroverted, so you're, and having now been with you in social situations, you're much better at this than I am. It's not in my wheelhouse, like it actually is really uncomfortable for me to to do that, not because I'm not confident in conversation or you know whatever, but it's just not my, it's not my default right. I'm not out in the world trying to make new friends. I have to, I have to think about it, I have to actually work at it, and so vulnerability really does create connections, and when we have those connections with just one back to the networking idea just one person in the group, that connection extends to everybody else in the group. And that's what got me thinking about sharing the story from the weekend for the podcast here.
Speaker 2:Back to the story. When I told Nikki about the weekend, I said, look I the podcast here is like back to the story when I told. When I told Nikki about the weekend, I said, look, I don't know anyone else, but I know Ty and I know that he's the type of person that if they're still in his life at this point, at 50 years old, you know, when you've known them for 20, 30 years, if they're cool with Ty, they're going to be cool with me, right, and I just trusted on that and and and showed up. But that shared connection, it just, it just bridges the gap, it makes new bonds easier to form because you have that sort of what's the word I'm looking for? You've been vetted Sure In a way, right, and I think that of course I'm assuming too, like their trust of me being you know, whatever worse being there was an extension of their trust in you as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I hear this. I hear two things from artists on a regular basis and I spent a lot of time talking with a lot of artists and networking and having these conversations. And number one is I'm so afraid to go to openings because I am introverted and I'm afraid of having to talk, but I know I need the network, so I, so I'm going and I'm just standing on the wall and I'm just watching, right, right. So that's number one. The second story is from the artists, who are consistent in that going. I just made the three best friends I've ever had as an artist and we're meeting every week and we're doing studio visits and we're going to coffee and we're having drinks and we're talking art. Those are the two things I hear from artists more than anything. Number one I need other artists in my life. I just get what I don't even know. I need to learn. I need my nephew to teach me to hand gestures on my phone so that I don't get the pop-up gifts all the time. Is that your phone?
Speaker 2:or is that our little?
Speaker 1:It's my phone. I just had balloons. Yeah, but those are the two main things, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2:Just a great reminder that if you're just listening to us and you want to see what we we talk, for whatever reason, we do post these videos, yes. On Spotify and YouTube yes, oh, that's right, Spotify as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so be. And that's just going back to be welcoming. If you keep seeing a face and there's never anybody around them, what if they're the next big art star? What if they've got this fantastic studio? What if they want to share a studio with you? They've got room. I mean, the things are endless. Right, it's artists. We all have the same thoughts, ideas, things in our head all the time. So it may be your next best art friend standing there that's just afraid to be the first person to say hi or do something. So, engage people and be vulnerable. Right, like you said, vulnerability creates connection. Be vulnerable and just go. Hey, what, what's up? See you here. All the time you must be an artist, or an art lover or starving collector?
Speaker 2:who knows?
Speaker 1:you don't know yeah, but I so go. Yeah, I did. Just a few weeks ago I did two studio visits locally, uh, with two artist friends newer artist friends over the last few years. My friend, jack bauer, who is a local artist in Waco, from San Francisco. He was at the Art Institute San Francisco. He was around with a lot of those abstract artists that were in San Francisco in the 60s Wonderful stories.
Speaker 1:But we did a studio visit, looked at his sculptures, looked at his paintings at his studio here in Waco and it was just such a beautiful time just being vulnerable, discussing work hey, what do you think, ty, about this stuff? What direction do you think I should go in? And just having those discussions of what's working, what's not working, and just being really vulnerable. And and Jack and I are currently we're doing a trade, so I'm trading for one of his sculpture wall sculpture pieces of painting, so he'll be at the studio this Thursday as we kind of go through and look at work and hang out. And then my friend, stacey Warrinks, who's an artist here in Waco but just seeing her space and studio and talking art.
Speaker 1:And those are just two people that I randomly met, one through Instagram who was moving to Waco and reached out and said hey, I'm moving, I've followed you for a while. Would you be willing to hang out when I get into town? Yeah, I'm always like, yeah, absolutely, it's meet up. And then, jack, we met. We were both in a show at our small museum here in a group show, and he had a couple of sculpture pieces and then we met at the show and hung out and talked, and we've hung out a few times, so it's just that's being open and welcoming, and then it creates just valuable connections that can last a short time or that can last a very long time.
Speaker 2:Yep, he must have had some cool stories about saving the world multiple times.
Speaker 1:Many, many.
Speaker 2:A little 24 reference for the. That's a 24 reference. That was Sutherland's character's name, wasn't it in that show?
Speaker 1:Yep Jack Bauer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I can think of a bunch of examples as well. Is that an art? Oh, what is it called Art Crawler? It was a few months back and actually ran into a couple of people that listened to the podcast and had recognized me, and recently I had a studio visit with one of them, who's now a mentee of yours, hallie, and she brought gosh, maybe five or I think there were maybe six of them all together and had a lovely studio visit, great conversation. It's just fun, right. It's fun to make those connections and it's fun to have conversations about art with other artists. It's just cool, right. So the more of those we can have, the better, yeah.
Speaker 1:For me as an artist, vulnerability is something that we've talked about in multiple episodes. There's just a depth. There's a depth that I really try to focus on in my work that's based on memory, and part of memory. There's a lot of vulnerability to share things that are very hard to share, that maybe you don't want to share just on a microphone, and so you share it through your work or an Instagram, whatever, and so part of something that I love to do with my friends is I'm somebody.
Speaker 1:If you know me, I like to go deep. If you've been a mentee in my program, you know I like to go deep. I like to get to the heart of the individual, the heart of their life, the thing that drives them or the thing that upsets them and those things. And so one of the things that we did one of the evenings together, after we sat around and ate in the barn, we started talking about. I phrased two questions, and they were what was something that was extremely beautiful in your life this past year and what was something that was really difficult for you in this last year? And the group of us you know this is a group of men. This is something that I prefaced with. You know, as men, we really struggle with vulnerability and getting deep, especially the older we get, and so I really wanted to give an opportunity for us to just go really deep as a group of men and just talk about life. And I think something that happens in that that can also happen with our art is when you do go deep and you are very vulnerable, you're opening up the audience to also reflect on the depth of what you're asking or what you're saying and cause them to really go back and think about those things deeply.
Speaker 1:And I think there's something very special in those moments as human beings, to really get to the heart of another, really get to the soul of another and go really deep. There's something meaningful that lasts. It's not something temporary, this is something that lasts, right, and there were a lot of tears. There's something meaningful that lasts. It's not something temporary, right, this is something that lasts, right, and there were a lot of tears, there's a lot of laughter, there's some real deep emotional things happening as we shared those moments from our lives over the last year, and I think it brings an instant connection to the group. It brings an instant depth of oh, if you're willing to go deep, then I'm willing to go deep, and I think that's something, as artists, that we should really be thinking about in our studios, with our work too, and I know we've talked about that in a lot of episodes, but I think it's something to continually bring up and discuss many times, because it should be the heart of our work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's really. There's a component of intentionality around that for you to have thought about those questions in advance. A lot of those things come up organically anyway sometimes, but because you were intentional about considering, all right, what are the deep questions that I want to get into? With this group, when we ask deep questions, we're way more likely to get deep answers, and that applies to interpersonal relationships. It also, of course, applies to our work. So the type of questions that we're asking to others and to ourselves as it pertains to the work, is absolutely going to determine the depth of answer that we get, and, frankly, that is going to lead to a more interesting and engaging answer, a more interesting and engaging conversation, again, whether it's between two people or between our work and anyone who might be looking at it.
Speaker 1:Well, I think this is a great. This is a great comparison right Of humanity and art. Like, what do we want more than anything as an artist? We want a true connection with the audience. We want the audience to see our work, feel something, want something, walk away with something, continue to think about that piece, maybe take the chance and buy it because they love it so much.
Speaker 1:One of my good artist friends, audrey Cha, we were talking this last weekend and she bought two pieces at an opening the other night and it's a financial sacrifice, but she loved those pieces so much, they hit her so hard, she could not leave without them, like literally couldn't leave without them. So she took the financial risk and she bought the works. Yeah, that's what we as artists like dream of those moments. But what is the complete comparison of that is? We as humans also want those moments with other human beings. We want to leave impressions that last.
Speaker 1:We want to feel that reciprocal love from another human being back to us because of how we are or how we act or how we respond to them, and I think we should compare those things right in the studios. What do we really want as human beings, with ourselves and our lives, but also what do we really want with our work. And I think that radical vulnerability and that welcoming spirit and those things should go hand in hand with our work. And I love this quote from Van Gogh. He says I feel that there's nothing more truly artistic than to love people. And I think that does go back and forth with your work too. If you're really putting that same attention and love into your work, something's going to happen. Something is going to happen with the audience accelerating the connection just exponentially, in real time.
Speaker 2:You think about the difference between surface level, small talk. What have we really learned, I mean, apart from that the other person also speaks the same language as us and is doing good and lives over here and has a job over there, or whatever it might be. The cheat code that is vulnerability. It really does accelerate those connections so so quickly, I mean, I think about. Probably the most extreme example is, for me, has been my experience with recovery and with the 12 steps.
Speaker 2:I have had intensely intimate connections with people who I had never met before and in some cases, never met again. If I'm traveling out of town, I go to a meeting, whatever it might be, but because we have that shared experience, because in this case, our lives, my life, depends on my willingness and I learned that early on Like, if I'm not willing to really share what's really going on right now, I have no chance at staying sober. And when, when we go first right, the shared connection, that common bond that we have, whether it's you know what I was just discussing or whether it's you know our, our path as artists, that's a very specific thing. You know, a non-artist is never going to be able to relate to certain challenges, certain feelings, certain experiences, like somebody who is also in this crazy, crazy game of art, like not even close, right, and so being willing to share. Like hey, I'm, I'm dealing with this. Have you ever experienced that?
Speaker 2:You know the, the, the takeaway, I think, here is just going first, you know, leading with like hey, and being okay with not looking cool, being okay with, like, you know, not looking good and with betraying the fact that you might not know what you're doing, is kind of a necessary component to that right. Because if we lead with sort of this, whatever, this contrived air of like I got it all going on, I got it all figured out, when, of course, you know we don't, it's not going to get us anywhere, there's nowhere to go from. Like hey, I got it, I got it all, I'm good, right, there's no, there's nowhere to go from there. If that's what I start with, you're like cool, good for you. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and that's that human connection. Right, and that's the most important thing in art and networking as an artist is having those human connections. So many books talk about the artist who is still sitting in their garage making art 50 years later. They've never gone out and made human connections outside of the studio and there may be a Van Gogh, there may be a Helen Frankenthaler that the world will never see, right, right, because they were too afraid or had too much fear in front of them to actually go form some of those human connections that can actually get their work and their career out there. And man, and that's the thing today we have. We have Instagram today. That's a great way to start forming some of those connections. Reach out, say hi, talk to artists, comment on their work regularly. I mean it's, it's the tool. You know, I was reading today in a book this morning that um Magnus I don't know what's his last Magnus right what.
Speaker 1:Resh, magnus Resh's book and he was talking about he was watching a big gallery owners after meeting with other artists, yeah, and the first thing they did when that artist walked away was get on their Instagram page and look, think, think about that connection. Like the first thing that the some of the biggest gallery owners were doing was getting on Instagram right after they talked to an artist or meet an artist and just looking at their feed. Yeah, so we have this connection that we can use to connect with other artists, especially in we. I talked about this with some friends this weekend. When you're in a really small town, yeah, when you're not in an art city, when you're not in New York, you're not in LA, you're not in Chicago or Paris or Berlin or London, you're not in the major art cities and there just aren't a lot of artists around. You're going to have to figure out a way to meet some if you want to build that connection and build that network, and Instagram's a fabulous place to start.
Speaker 2:Just say hi. Certainly, I mean for all its limitations, for how impersonal it can absolutely be and feel for sure at times much like we were talking about before with the intentionality around asking deep questions to get deep answers. It requires some intentionality to get a personal connection out of an inherently impersonal platform. It doesn't take much, but it does take an effort of some kind and it is crazy how just the amount of real connections and real friendships that can be made without ever meeting somebody in person I think about. I'll start from an example.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be in Munich for my show next month and I was thinking about how I'm going to potentially deal with any issues that might come up as far as having access to a studio space the tools that I normally use, but just a place to work and my Instagram friend, nico Hensel. I knew he was in Germany somewhere, I didn't realize he's like 45 minutes away, you know, from the gallery. So he reached out. I think we've never met in person, you know, but we've dialogued a ton, you know, just with DMs and commenting on one another's work and just kind of being mutual fans of what one another does, and he was so generous to say, hey, whatever you need, you tell me. You come up, I'll empty out my space. It's not as big as yours he was so funny Not as big as yours.
Speaker 2:I don't have any flamethrowers, but you're welcome to use whatever I have, and that's amazing. It's amazing that somebody is willing to do that. But that all comes from just making those connections and keeping conversations, initiating and keeping conversations going. That is the nice thing about Instagram is that we are going to, if we spend back to intentionality, the right amount of time and a specific amount, whatever that looks like. But as we're following one another, we're going to keep probably hopefully popping up on one another's feeds and being aware of what other people are doing, which naturally keeps the conversation going as well yeah, I mean, I just I did my red.
Speaker 1:That residency I did earlier this year with seven artists who met on Instagram and then were a part of my program.
Speaker 1:And if it wasn't for just that digital connection, right, and the willingness to reach out and then stay connected and and now there's, you know, seven of my best friends, like literally seven of my closest artist friends, and we meet every two weeks on zoom and we chat and we, you know, have a WhatsApp group that we're constantly going back and forth on, but we've become brothers and sisters.
Speaker 1:Like when I say that I don't take that lightly Like we literally have become brothers and sisters and there's a depth of vulnerability when we chat. Now, right, that shared connection was the beginning, right, but then the boldness to be vulnerable with each other and having a shared experience together for a month has created such a radical depth and a willingness to just lay it out there when we need to and just be totally honest. And usually the answers are like oh my gosh, me too, thanks for I'm there too. Or oh man, I was there last month, this is what I did to get through it. Or I don't know, it's just created a beautiful, beautiful thing and just uh. But if it wasn't for people just reaching out and starting a conversation to begin with and taking a risk, then it wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 2:How many of that group did you had you met in person previously? Anybody One, gianna, just John, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's wild. I mean I'm laughing about you. Pick me up at the airport, get out, give you a big hug. And I had that moment where, as we're pulling my bag towards the car, I'm just like there, you are hey, you're a real life person.
Speaker 1:That was pretty funny. We both did that. Look at you.
Speaker 2:You're about? Yeah, I mean as many hours as we spent talking and even interfacing via. Even interfacing, you know, via video like this, it's still a different thing, a deeper level of connection, of course, when we're, when we're sharing oxygen and belly to belly. You know, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, let's let's jump into vulnerability, since we've been talking about it quite a bit here. Talking about that, that vulnerability that I was able to create with those other seven artists you know definitely extends beyond the personal relationships into our professional and our creative endeavors and our art. Like I said, like that depth of just being vulnerable and telling each other stories and getting to know each other outside of art has brought an even bigger depth into our work and when we're making it and talking about it, and there's that trust factor which is really tough at times for an artist to have a trust factor with.
Speaker 1:Hey, will you look at this work I'm doing? Hey, will you tell me what you think? You know? Because at the end of the day, we're going to do what we think, period. But inviting you, or you inviting Eric and I right like you did throughout your whole process creating work for the Munich show was like hey, guys, just been working on this one, what do you think? And having us coming back and talked about that, there's a trust factor there. For sure. You're showing unfinished work, you're showing direction before it's been really worked out in your head, just to get some feedback. And that really adds to the depth of everything else. And there's a great quote by the actor Valuchendu that says An artist is vulnerable and their craft truthful when he or she resists the desire to meddle with the wholesome expression of the soul. I'm going to read it one more time. Hit it again An artist is vulnerable and their craft truthful when he or she resists the desire to meddle with the wholesome expression of the soul. I love that.
Speaker 2:I love a lot about that quote. The part that really jumps off the page to me about that is the desire to meddle. You're resisting the desire to meddle with the wholesome expression of the soul because it implies and I agree with this that we have an inherent resistance to vulnerability, which makes sense because, by definition, we are exposing ourselves to potential criticism, rejection, you know, fill in the blank with however you want to end that, but things that we have, from from birth, been programmed to avoid, specifically avoid, right. You think about the conditioning that we get as kids in school and trying to fit in and trying to avoid, avoid rejection, and how deep those imprints really are, right, so let's get a little vulnerable here, ty, and talk about like right, so let's get a little vulnerable here, ty, and talk about like, what do you think for you? What, what, what is it? I'll go first. I just talked about going first. I'll go, I'll go first.
Speaker 2:But what keeps me from being vulnerable as a human being and in my work is just fear of being exposed. You know, not, not looking cool, I was not a cool kid. I mean back talking about grade school, talking about growing up, definitely was not a cool kid wasn't outsider, didn't feel like I fit in. You know, probably I think I've seen, let me imagine it. Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of heads nodding here. That's, that's not just me, so. So I think that that that imprint is still there while I have worked to, you know, get get over myself and get over that like need to like feel like I'm all put together, you know, to to kill the perfectionism that prevents authentic expression. But that's it for me, that is, that is number one. With a bullet, the, the, the thing that that, that the, the desire to meddle with that wholesome and authentic expression, for me is just the fear of not looking good, the fear of exposing the fact that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, you know what is it for?
Speaker 2:you.
Speaker 1:Man. I mean this. This quote goes if you haven't listened to the last episode, go listen to the last episode, because I read a section from Letters to a Young Poet by Rainier Maria Rilke, and this is really kind of the heart of what I read, because the poet who is writing Rilke letters and asking for advice, is meddling with the wholesome expression of his soul. He's completely meddling, and Rilke is calling him out on that and saying stop, stop looking outside, stop messing with his soul. He's completely meddling and real cause, calling him out on that and saying stop, stop looking outside, stop messing with your soul. Dive into the deep moments, quit looking around and asking all these questions outside of yourself. Like, stay focused on you.
Speaker 1:And I think for me, I'm such a perfectionist with my work that I, I think I I get really scared to put something out there that I don't feel 100% is right, and so I really struggle with that big, and sometimes that stops me from getting started because I don't have the idea fully flushed out in my head yet, and so I really start to kind of meddle with things rather than just going hey, I know what I'm feeling, let's go ahead and go, let myself take me where it goes. Instead, I plan, I plan, I prep, I prep, I prep, I plan, and then I wait, and then I wait, and then I wait, and then I start and I think I mean I probably only share 25% or less of what I make. I think I would say probably, as I went back through things like to the public. I hold a lot back from Instagram, from YouTube, from things like that. And I started to think about that the other day because I think it might've been Gianna or somebody that had said oh my gosh, I love these pieces. No, when she was here at my studio a few months ago and there were some pieces that I was like, yeah, I don't know if I'll, and she's like, oh, what are you kidding me? I love these. Yeah, I'm like I still, I don't know, you know, and and I, she's somebody. I 100% trust her. I like literally, I'm like, if you say it, I believe you. Yeah, she's just somebody. I have that with that trust factor with.
Speaker 1:And I think I just sat back and I'm like, why am I so afraid to put that out? Yeah, what is it? Well, is it not? Is it because it's just not in line with where I'm trying to go right now Is it you know what? But there's a fear there with me, and I think it's because maybe I'm not feeling like it's perfect, which art's never going to be perfect, it's just it can't be, it's not going to be, and I actually love non-perfect art, but there's something with me that really wants it to be, in my eyes, so comfortable, so perfect before I let it out the door that I think at times it really holds me back, do you?
Speaker 2:think that that fear comes from the work not being good or true to what you're trying to say, or is it more a product of fear of how it's going to be received or viewed within the context of what you've done previously?
Speaker 1:yes, and and and yeah, I'd say yes to both of those. Yeah, honestly yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's a whole conversation that we could have an entirely standalone podcast about, but it's it is. I mean, we've talked about it in different ways previously as well. I'm sure we'll we'll get into it again. But just the whole idea of when we're getting into new territory, when we're expanding beyond where we've done before, where we've been before, rather it's going to be uncomfortable, it's going to be less certain because it doesn't look like the things that we I mean, as we're making work that's in the same vein of something that we've done before and looks enough like other work that we deemed to be successful, it's much easier to arrive at the conclusion of yes, this too is good and authentic to me. And here you go, world. But it does get back. I mean, your story with Gianna is a great example of it.
Speaker 2:It does get back to that Um, you know, we taught, I think uh, what was that Helen Frankenthaler quote, where I think we played it in our, in our, in our Helen episode, but where she said you know, once, once I'm done, I'm always? This is a very rough paraphrasing here, but what I took from it was I'm always surprised. I never know what the gallery is going to want or what people are going to like, and that's really none of my business. I was sharing with a friend recently that of the work that I've spent the last you know whatever four or five months, six months making for this upcoming show, 85% of it didn't get finished or shared with the gallery and of that, a much, much smaller percent was selected, you know, to be included. Yep, that's just part of it.
Speaker 2:Always, always. And I remember there was one or a couple in particular where I was like, really, are you sure? No, no, every time, really, there was one or a couple in particular where I was like really, are you sure about you know?
Speaker 1:no, no, that one really that one that I almost, I almost didn't share that with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I almost didn't include, you know, I almost didn't include that in in the list of options, you know. So it's just it's it's. It's funny how that all works. It's just a really interesting dynamic.
Speaker 1:Well, and he hit. The funny thing too with me me is we have this little note that says the courage to show imperfection in our notes here. And the funny thing is my work is imperfect. I'm not trying to make perfect looking work, I'm not a realist painter, I'm not a figurative painter, I'm an expressionist. So it's everywhere. And so the funny thing is I celebrate the imperfection of gesture and the imperfection of things in the piece. But, mentally right, if it doesn't feel perfect, it's hard for me to let it go and move in my head. And the funny thing is, is the ones that usually I'm so confident in that I'm, that is it, I nailed it, it's perfect. Are not the ones ever selected? Yeah, like you said, those ones that you're just like nailed it, fuck, yeah, let's go. And then the gallery's like these four, but not those four, and you're like wait, those are my four favorite pieces, those are the ones that worked.
Speaker 1:You beat me, it's an interesting thing, and that is what we need to do an episode on that we do.
Speaker 2:I think it'd be. I think it'd be really interesting. You beat me to the F today. You got to drop the F on today. It's kind of a little game that, ladies and gentlemen, that we don't play. That I play is who gets to cuss first, and we try to keep it to one or fewer, to minimum. It's a family show, yeah.
Speaker 2:So on imperfection, there's a quote by Guillermo del Toro that popped up for me, very simple but just an absolutely amazing quote.
Speaker 2:There is beauty and humility in imperfection.
Speaker 2:There is beauty and humility in imperfection, and what I love about that quote, specifically the beauty part, is to me, I think to us, pretty obvious, because it is a huge part of what both you and I are attracted to in work and seeking to communicate with our work. The humility part of that is also really interesting, because and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this as well, but I was really thinking about this and it does require a level of. It requires a level of I'm trying to think of another word I mean it requires a level of willingness to be okay with. I don't have it all figured out. It's not going to be perfect. If a working definition in the context of this quote is it's not going to be perfect, and I wouldn't want it to be, even if it could be. There's humility in acknowledging that perfection isn't even on the table, it's not even a possibility, and being okay with that reality opens us up that much more to be vulnerable, to be authentic and to have that imperfection lead to beauty.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I want to say something just to context of what I was saying previously about.
Speaker 2:It's a podcast. This is a place where we say things. This is where we do that about. It's a podcast. This is a. This is a place where we say things. You know, this is where we do that.
Speaker 1:Just love it, love it. Just talking about struggling with being a perfectionist and wanting you know the work to be a certain way. In no way Am I talking about this quote Because I truly believe there's beauty and humility and imperfection. When I say letting something go, I just has to feel right for me to let go. Yeah, you know and that. So that's what I'm saying, just to not confuse anybody with, um, what I said previously in this quote, because I totally believe there's beauty and humility and imperfection. And there has to be right because we're all imperfect.
Speaker 1:Every single one of us is imperfect. We all have flaws, we all have things that we've struggled with before, after We've been broken by people in multiple ways, our entire lives or currently in our life today, and so there has to be beauty in that, because we know what's on the other side, we know how it's formed us and how it's created, our trajectory and where we were going, these imperfections. And there is beauty in it because there's beauty in healing and there's beauty in refinement, there's beauty in overcoming the mistakes or overcoming trauma in life, and there's also humility in that, because if you've been through something, you have to have a form of humility in your life, especially towards others, as this whole episode is kind of geared towards human connection and vulnerability and being welcoming to people and things. You better have humility where you are, no matter where you've. If you're the most successful artist on the planet, you better show some humility because you struggled, you've made, you've missed the mark, you've had imperfect things go out into the world, you've messed up, you've been broken, and there's nothing that pisses me off more than people who are not, who do not live in humility, that have gotten somewhere through tough things and have achieved more than others. There's nothing that like drives me more crazy than those individuals in life. So just operate with beauty and humility because you've been through it, you've gone somewhere.
Speaker 1:Welcome the young artists. Give advice. Don't ignore every comment on your Instagram page from young artists that are asking you questions why can't you share what you use? Why can't you? Why can artists not share? This is the material I'm using to get that. What's with that? Show some fucking humility. Like honestly, it drives me crazy. I see artists who have massive followings that are looked, looked up to and I'm not talking about the big artists who don't run their Instagram pages anymore, talking about artists that have built a big following that are doing things. They I'm talking about artists that have built a big following that are doing things. They've got all these comments coming through from artists asking questions and they never respond once. Yeah, it just pisses me off. I don't understand it. Give something back, damn it. It just drives me crazy. Anyways.
Speaker 2:Why don't you read our? Why don't you read our yes?
Speaker 1:Let's go to the next quote by the fabulous Georgia O'Keefe. This is incredible. I've been absolutely terrified at every moment of my life and I've never let it keep me from doing a single thing. I wanted to Hell. Yes, georgia, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's. That's a pretty freaking great. That's a bad-ass quote.
Speaker 2:It's a's a badass quote. I mean it's supposed to be scary. Yeah, I mean Absolutely. The fact that you're scared is an indication that you're trying to do something real, that you're trying to do something big. Yep, really, I mean, you think about the only time that fear wouldn't be or an element of it wouldn't be at least an ingredient in the mix maybe small, maybe large is if we were doing something that we had done before, the way we had done it before.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I mean, perfection for sure requires precision. It requires repetition of the same thing, and there isn't a lot of fear in that, because it's just rinse and repeat the definition of perfection. It is very precise, it's very specific, it is exactly the way it was intended to be. And while there is certainly room for perfection, while there's certainly a there, there are certainly things that we would like to work that way. Uh, you know, we, we prefer for the, the engines in our vehicles or you know whatever, to to work the way that they're supposed to. There's precision in that, but it's not interesting. It's the same working version of a million others that are exactly like it and polished. Perfection isn't interesting, it's not unique, there's nothing authentic about it. It's just another one of those things. And who cares? So that's kind of the takeaway of that.
Speaker 2:For me is like and again back to one of our core talking points, again and again, and again. That's why we go back to these quotes of the greats, like O'Keefe, and we hear her say I've been absolutely terrified every moment of my life. Awesome, me too, and I've never let it keep. That's the difference. So, starting from a place of all right, we're all terrified, we're all scared, we're all going to experience a version of those emotions. Great, the difference between people that do it and don't are just doing it in spite of that fact. It's not getting over that fact. The goal is not to get to a point where we don't experience the fear anymore, because that's probably not possible anyway. The point, the goal is to get to a point where we acknowledge that we are absolutely terrified and we boldly move forward anyway, we are absolutely terrified and we boldly move forward anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Well. And my buddy, steven Pressfield says in the War of Art he talks about how if you have a massive fear about starting something, it's probably because you're supposed to start it. Yeah, that's how you know. That's how you know when you're scared shitless, it's time to start it, it's time to go move that direction, do it scared shitless.
Speaker 2:It's time to start it. It's time to go move that direction, do it. So as we begin to wrap up, let's read a quote by Brene Brown that I think really kind of encapsulates most of what we've been talking about so far. She writes staying vulnerable is a risk we have to take if we want to experience connection. Staying vulnerable is a risk we have to take if we want to experience connection.
Speaker 1:Your thoughts- You're not going to experience connection if you're not and we're not talking vulnerable as far as. Let me share my life story and everything I've been through right off the bat, right.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Sometimes vulnerability is literally just like hey, see you here all the time. I'm Ty. Yeah, are you an artist? You just here to see art? I mean, that's for some people that is radically vulnerable, right For you. Right To just sit at a table with a bunch of guys you don't know, and then all of a sudden, no, it's my turn to answer the question about what's the most beautiful thing in this. Oh crap, you know what I mean. That's, oh, it's my turn to answer the question about what's the most beautiful thing in this. Oh crap, you know what I mean. That's very vulnerable, yeah.
Speaker 1:But even simple vulnerability is just saying hello or just acknowledging someone's presence. And what happens when you take that first step? Connection begins, yeah, and that's also translated into our work, right, what is art? Art is a shared connection. Art is a shared connection. Art is a shared connection. It is something between the creator and the viewer. It is something between the audience and the maker. If you're in the room or not in the room as the maker, it's still a shared connection. You've created something. You've been vulnerable enough to let it go outside of your studio and go on a wall for somebody to witness. That's a shared connection. So that's vulnerability as well, just being able to get your work out there as a vulnerable act as an artist. But if you want to experience shared connection with other artists, you're going to have to take some steps in vulnerability to meet some people as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Nick Cave is somebody that we talk about a lot. He's somebody that you and I both love as an artist, a creator and a musician Just fabulous. And he's somebody that absolutely embraces vulnerability on every level, on every single level as a human being, as an artist, as a writer, as a musician and a creator. And so we've shared this quote before, but I would love to share it one more time. It's something I go back to on a regular basis, as I've kind of gone through his book Faith, hope and Carnage and have paraphrased it and taken all the quotes and put them into a notebook of mine from the book, and so here's the quote. Here's what he says on vulnerability there's something about being open and vulnerable that is, conversely, very powerful, maybe even transformative.
Speaker 1:For me, vulnerability is essential to spiritual and creative growth, whereas being invulnerable means being shut down, rigid and small. My experience of creating music and writing songs is finding enormous strength through vulnerability. You're being open to whatever happens, including failure and shame. There's a certain there's certainly a vulnerability to that and an incredible freedom. He just, he just said there's an incredible freedom even in failure and shame. Yeah, and I think that goes right back up to the Georgia O'Keefe quote I've been terrified every moment of my life and I've never let it keep me from doing a single thing. I wanted to Cause, sometimes, the things we want to do. There's some failure that's going to exist when we're doing what we want to do Because you got to fail, fail, fail, fail until you hit the winner, until you hit that one. That is the one that all the failure and the shame produced. And that shame he's talking about is the album that just didn't sell better than the last album, sure, yeah, right. Or the song that didn't hit as good as some of the other songs. As a creator and an artist, there's a shame when I I've had shows that haven't sold a single piece. I feel immense shame when I take that show down and not one work sold Right, like I really do.
Speaker 1:But I go to what stephen pressfield said when his first uh screenplay bombed king kong lives. And he was so like I don't even why am I doing? Blah, blah, blah. You know, this is just, this is terrible, this is so shameful. And his buddy goes but would you change anything in your life to not do this at all? And he's's like no, I want to do this. He was like yeah, you're in it, you just failed. You just had a real failure. You're in it, right. So I have to look at those moments and go well, I just had a solo show, I'm in it. And then walk away and go okay, how do I improve on that?
Speaker 2:I mean there's such a deep level of acceptance that's baked into both of those last couple of quotes that we shared, by O'Keefe, by Nick Cape, and the acceptance is that it might not work. It's just an acknowledgement of like, yeah, people might not like it. People might not buy them, people might not. I mean it's just baked into the equation and without that acceptance of it might not work. And if it doesn't, I'm still going to be okay. If it doesn't, it still will have moved me in a positive direction. If it doesn't, I still am on the path of getting closer to making my best work.
Speaker 2:And that Nick Cave quote, I mean that's the incredible freedom that we're all after. I think Certainly what I'm here for, that incredible freedom that comes from being open to whatever happens, to receiving these ideas and executing them and doing our best. Today. We don't need to know the answers for tomorrow, we just need to know all right, I'm acting on what's true for me in this moment, because I'm receiving what's coming, because I'm open, because I'm vulnerable, because I'm listening to what's real, not what I think should be there. I'm listening to what's're receiving, what's actually here, not trying to sort of contrive what we wish was, or what we've done before, and that is an incredible freedom. That is, I think, what this whole art deal is all about. Right, it is that incredible freedom and it all comes from that openness and from that vulnerability. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:So next steps go to some shows, say hello to some artists, go make some new friends, go be vulnerable, meet some people, and I hope you're having an awesome time in the studio this week, and we got a new year coming up pretty fast, so I'm pretty excited for what's happening for you and I coming up in 2025. And there's a lot of things that we don't know that are on the horizon. So be vulnerable. Don't let fear hold you back. Set some goals for 2025. Where do you want your art to go? Where do you want it to be? Who do you want to meet? Go after it.
Speaker 1:The end the end Bye, bye.
