Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
From Trash to Treasure: Robert Rauschenberg
This episode is a replay from Dec 28th 2023. Just Make Art will be back with a brand new episode on March 20th.
What happens when an artist truly understands their medium? For Robert Rauschenberg, that's precisely when it was time to stop and move on. His philosophy—"I usually work in a direction until I know how to do it. Then I stop. At the time I am bored, or understand, and I use those words interchangeably"—serves as the launching point for a deep dive into artistic evolution and the creative mindset.
Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg unpack Rauschenberg's approach to creativity, exploring how his constant medium-shifting—from painting to sculpture, printmaking to performance—wasn't merely restlessness but a deliberate artistic strategy. They examine his famous "combines" that incorporated everyday objects and trash, born initially from economic necessity but evolving into a revolutionary artistic approach that bridged the gap between art and life.
The conversation takes fascinating turns through the concept of the "beginner's mind," the documentation of creative processes, and the tension between commercial success and artistic growth. Particularly compelling is their discussion about creating opportunities in today's art landscape—from organizing house shows to leveraging digital platforms—that echoes Rauschenberg's resourceful spirit.
Whether you're a working artist feeling stagnant in your current practice, or someone curious about the artistic mindset, this episode offers both philosophical insights and practical takeaways about embracing boredom as a creative signal, following your curiosity, and maintaining that crucial sense of wonder throughout your creative journey. Ready to transform your approach to making art? Listen now and discover why sometimes understanding something completely is your cue to move on to the next exciting possibility.
Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!
Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Just Make Art, a conversation about making art and the artist's journey, with myself, ty Nathan-Clark, from Waco, texas, and my buddy, nathan Turborg, from Minneapolis, minnesota. We're just two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you, and I am pretty pumped up about the artists we're going to talk about today, so somebody that's one of my heroes it's going to be a good one.
Speaker 2:We're going to talk about a quote by the one and only Robert Rauschenberg. You know, one of these days we'll probably have a quote. It's going to be a recurring theme, like hey, really excited to talk about this, but one of these days we'll have a quote. It's like, eh, just not build it up at all.
Speaker 1:Like, I'm kind of so-so on this one, but we'll give it our best shot.
Speaker 2:All right. So here's the quote we're going to discuss today. I usually work in a direction until I know how to do it. Then I stop. At the time I am bored, or understand, and I use those words interchangeably. Another appetite has formed. A lot of people try to think up ideas. I'm not one. I'd rather accept the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore. So lots to unpack here. Why don't you give us our first pass?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know that quote makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:If you're a Rauschenberg fan, if you followed his career, you know that he's definitely a guy whose appetite is constantly changing from one form, one medium to another.
Speaker 1:You know, from painting to sculpture, to prints, photography, performance, dance which a lot of people don't really know, his performance and dance stuff that spanned over, you know, 60 years, you know, and he really jumped onto the scene during the Ab-X movement but is kind of known as a neo-Dadaist, as a pop artist Worked in what a lot of people call combines, which are like assemblage art, big collages, three-dimensional stuff, stuff, black Mountain College in North Carolina, working under Joseph Albers, to collaborators with John Cage the composer, to his dear friend Cy Twombly, and then, of course, just the dialogue that he and Jasper Johns really shaped in their time together and their friendship is probably what most artists really recognize is that relationship with he and Jasper Johns and the way that they really influenced each other and each other's studios and sharing studios and back and forth, and just that relationship of a true artist, peer right, that is so influential.
Speaker 1:In all you do, you run the ideas by and they critique your work. You're in this constant dialogue on how to grow and how to change and how to develop, and you know, both of those guys were in that realm of you know, I'm not going to be thinking up ideas, I'm just going to work, work, work, work, work. And when I can't ignore something, I'm just going to dive into it full, full force, right, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I think, um, I, I definitely in learning more about uh Rauschenberg and I watched a couple of documentaries and and gobble up as many interviews on on YouTube as I could find but I definitely, uh, you know, I feel a kinship with his philosophy and just approach to the art making process. And you know I feel a kinship with his philosophy and just approach to the art making process and you know almost everything that I that I've read or heard him say. It's like oh, yeah, you know, and he speaks you mentioned this when we were, when we were preparing but you know, he speaks so eloquently and and and poetically. It's there's so many just gems. You know that that, uh, that we've got to mine, so, um, we'll probably, we'll probably share a couple more of those as we go through here today. But, yeah, it's interesting. I mean just in kind of breaking this one down. There's so much just in this one quote. But I think, you know, just going in kind of chronological order, I think that at the time I'm bored, or understand, and using those two words interchangeably. You know, that's something for me that like immediately, just, you know, yes, you know, I get that, you know completely. Like you know, understanding, you know, is boring, or when you get to a certain point, and as somebody who's, you know, very easily bored and very easily distracted, you know, it seems to me that, like you said, looking at his body of work over his career and all the different, you know, mediums that he expressed himself, I mean that's pretty evident, you know, in his approach to work. But I think about, like, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this too, but I personally don't have any interest in mastery, you know, and it seems as though he really didn't either.
Speaker 2:If you think about that whole, um, you know, zen, buddhist, uh, concept of, like, having the beginner's mind, you know, um, in fact, there's a quote that came to mind as I was thinking about our conversation today. I wanted to share, and this is from uh, uh, I'm going to I'm going to mispronounce it probably, but Shinryo Suzuki in the beginner's mind mind, there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few. I'm sure you've heard that before too, but you know, you think about rauchenberg and you know he certainly uh, seems to have had that beginner's mind approach. You know, the whole way through meaning that, or my interpretation being um, you know, once he, once he starts to understand something, he gets bored you isn't interested in pursuing. You know, expert level at any one thing, it's, it's onto the next. It's continuing to sort of foster that, that, um, you know, fresh eyes and beginner's mind approach to this process.
Speaker 1:Sometimes we create things out of necessity, right? And so it's like that. That beginner's mind is nothing's off limits, right? The, the person who leaves the beginner and starts to become more advanced, kind of focuses more in on, like what you said, mastery, and oh, okay, I got to use the best oil paints now, and so I don't go, I don't invent things because I don't have necessity, right? I don't have this forced thing upon me that I have to use coffee this week because I cannot afford to go out and buy brown or burnt sienna to use in my painting.
Speaker 1:So, it's like, and I was watching another interview with with Rauschenberg late last night and he talked about you know. The question was you know, why did you use so many random things in your work? And he said well, you know, economy is why I did it. You know, I started doing these things because I didn't have the money. So I lost my car. You know. He says in this interview with Leo Castelli, his art dealer and friend, as he says, I lost my car and so I had a blanket that was over my car that kept the radiator warm in the winter when it was cold, and so I used that blanket to paint on, you know, and I think Leo said that's mine, I have that, you know. And he said oh yeah, you do have that, that is yours, you know, and so, but it's like necessities, like I used a towel to paint on and create on. Have you ever tried to use a towel? It's hard.
Speaker 2:But it also takes away the board, the mattress, right from that same conversation. The mattress, yeah, yeah, exactly what was the concept? It's what I had around, right? What?
Speaker 1:I had around Necessity being the mother of invention Yep. Economy is why I started, and I think those conversations give you permission to use whatever the heck you want when you're working Right.
Speaker 1:And I do that, like, I run out of certain things and I go okay, how in the world can I convey this message? Um, okay, let's use cardboard. Let's, what do I have in the studio around me that I could bring into this piece and make sense of it? And that helps me not get too bored as well. Right, because I've gone back and looked at old series of work and gone. Man, I really liked the direction I was going there. Why am I not doing that anymore? And I go oh well, cause it was done. Right, I got bored. Right. So that same part where he says I work in a direction until I know how to do it. Yeah, then I stop. If you keep working in the direction you know how to do, you're never going to grow and your work is just going to be boring.
Speaker 2:Well, there's so much excitement that comes from. You know, as a, I mean I I love working with anything.
Speaker 2:I can pretty much get my hands on, but there's so much excitement that comes from just a new material and not knowing how it's going to behave, right, just being like we'll see how this goes, we'll see what type of marks this makes and how, you know, everything interacts. You know that was another quote of his I wanted to bring up so perfect introduction to that. But you know he said I mostly work in trash, and this is from that same interview, by the way. We'll link it in the description. But fantastic interview, that's on YouTube here.
Speaker 2:But I mostly work in trash and I love this. The idea of a beautiful piece of silk or beautiful color consumed with its own vanity didn't interest me, isn't that great? Like you know, this the, the idea that this material a beautiful piece of silk or a beautiful color, consumed with its own vanity, in other words, I mean the way I read that is like you know something that's already inherently beautiful, just not interesting. So just that whole idea of working with you know so many different, uh, different materials and and and trash is, uh, is really interesting to me.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, if you've been to a museum, especially in America, you've come across a Rauschenberg piece, whether you realize it or not, right, you've either come across a collage, um, large or small, or you've come across one of his combines, one of his assemblage pieces. And as you're saying that, you know, I think about the quote where he says you know, painting relates to both art and life, either can be made. But I act in the gap between the two. And that when I see his work, I think that because some of my favorite pieces, you know, they may have a ladder that's attached to the, to the combine, or a chair and then a towel, and then color and things, and it's almost as if he was in his room and he was looking around or, you know, walked out the door to the trash can and saw this ladder.
Speaker 1:So it's like he's combining this gap of life, what exists, what's out there, what is tangible, but then kind of his life as he's piecing together, you know, his philosophy behind his work and he's a very he's a processor, right, he's not a fast talker, not a quick. He doesn't relay information right away. You know there's plenty of moments in interviews where he disappears for a minute, yeah, and you're like it's a little awkward. Where's he going? Right, and sometimes the interviewer doesn't realize it and starts to talk, and then, all of a sudden, rauschenberg comes in with a full force. You know like he catches his moment and I think, when I see his work, I feel that, yeah, that there's this deep philosophy of processing each thing that he's doing, each piece that he puts on. There is this slow, thought out process of that combination of life and art.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you remind me of that, um, the interview um with Charlie Rose. That's actually quite. I don't know if you watch that one, but it's, it's pretty awkward. You know, and and and Charlie Rose, a masterful interviewer who's interviewed, you know, thousands of people from all, all walks of life and backgrounds, but he never quite got the pacing down because, right as he was about to, as Rauschenberg was about to sort of, you know, bring it home, or, or, you know, catch that next wave, as, as put it like, um, charlie Rhodes is just trying to, you know, pull out. You know, kind of the the next thing, but that definitely I liked that. You said that. That definitely does speak to the sort of intentionality around you know, his, uh, his ideas, and that's kind of the next part.
Speaker 2:Um, as we kind of work through this chronologically, I guess, is just, I love the whole idea of appetite and I wanted to talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2:Like you know, another appetite has formed. So this is something where, um, you know the uh as a, as a recovering addict myself, and knowing you know his, his struggles with alcohol and his struggles to to get um to get sober later in life. I think there's something about that appetite for more that where you happen to have that particular background, you know or not, but I think that's something that a lot of artists share. We can call it you know, sort of that insatiable curiosity you know of, oh, I wonder, you know what if, um, what if this you know? And I think that when you're open and when you're curious, which I think is probably one of the most common characteristics that you know creatives of all types you know probably have, is just that, that, that curiosity. But I think when you're open to that extent um, the way he certainly was, you know the appetite, you know forms on its own right. It's not something that he has to conjure up.
Speaker 1:Yep Well, and he says you make art, you are art, you live art, you do art, you are doing what no one can stop you doing Art is your life. If you are an artist and you make art and you're making a lot of it, that appetite continues to grow and grow and grow the more that you make it. Because the more you make it, the more you go look at it. Right, the more you go look at it, the more you start to read about it and then, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I study like crazy and I work like crazy, but for me that appetite is.
Speaker 1:I know why Rauschenberg had such a wide range of mediums, because when you're creating, you start thinking, well, what could it be in this element? How can I take it to this element? How can I take this to this element? I don't know if I believe that he's not the person who tries to think up ideas that he says. A lot of people try to think up ideas, and I'm not one man. If you're an artist, you're ideating like crazy. That new modern word that isn't really in the dictionary, you know ideation, it's become a word. You're ideating all the time.
Speaker 2:It's one of my strength finders, by the way, so thanks for bringing that up.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it, and so it's like for me now that I'm trying to go more three-dimensional. I started out in sculpture and ceramics, I moved into painting and have just been painting for a long time, but then have been doing sculpture here and there, not a lot but small bodies of sculptures and things. But the more I paint, the more I'm saying how do I get my work more into the room than just flat on the wall? Yeah, right. So thinking through, how can I do that with canvas? Can I fold it? Can I crumple it Right, can I bring it off the painting more? Okay, now, how do I get it into the floor?
Speaker 1:How do I have these things I'm working on, these ideas I have and these stories I'm telling? How do I'm working on these ideas I have in these stories I'm telling, how do I get them into more space? Right, so I can totally see Rauschenberg, right, wanting to move into performance and dance, wanting to move into, you know, sculpture and all you know all these ideas and all these things that he has in his artist makeup. How can I now bring them even more into the audience's senses than just flat on a wall? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Totally does, yeah, and thinking about too, how you know I mean a career of, of, of his length and magnitude. He tried a lot of different things, you know. A lot of them worked a lot of them. A lot of them maybe didn't write like his photography. That he did later in his career was something he clearly had a passion for and loved, you know, with all the travels that he did around, the sort of humanitarian efforts that he was, that he was engaged in.
Speaker 2:But everything leads to the next thing, right, and I think that's that's. That's what's interesting is that you know, maybe all of the um, whatever let's just use an example those, those, those stills may not have been elite that he ever set out to be great at at that, but that then led to the next thing, or was informed by everything you know, sort of that came before it. I'm going to disagree with you on something. I actually believe him when he says that he doesn't try to think up ideas, like I believe that somebody like that, the ideas just sort of come. You know what I mean. Like sure, their ideas are present, right. So we're kind of, we're kind of, you know, splitting hairs a little bit, but I think that there's a difference between. When I read that sentence, a lot of people try to think of ideas. I'm not one. I think of him sort of referring to somebody who's like all right, pen and a pad Let me try to figure this out and sort of engineer.
Speaker 1:Sure Conjure, exactly yeah, as opposed to just being open.
Speaker 2:And something else he talks about is how he doesn't really know what he's going to do. You know before, but he's disciplined to to continue to work Right A reoccurring theme of a lot of the quotes and things that we discuss here. But anyway, I believe him. I believe him when he says that they just sort of come, as opposed to having to generate them, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, and maybe that's the wording to, a lot of people try to think up ideas. Maybe it's a lot of people try to conjure and invent ideas, right, right Cause I definitely. I mean, I know my ideas are listed in, you know, the the 50 journals that I'm constantly writing down every idea I have. So I don't forget stuff. Because I forget stuff, right, like stories, books finished my first novel this year, you know. So it's like I've got all these things I want to do and I think, too, like I want to encourage all the artists out there listening, like don't let your ideas hold you back. Right, because I know there are plenty of painters who want to sculpt, plenty of sculptors who want to paint, plenty of artists who are like I've got an idea for a film, short, right, I've got an idea I'd love to write, I'd love to.
Speaker 1:It's like no, don't not do that. Like, find ways to create as much as you can create right in your time that you have here on this earth. You know, and life is short, like we know that. You know that very well just from stories in your life. Life is short and that's, you know, it's one of the reasons why you decided I got to make this jump and be a full-time artist and make art in the time that I have.
Speaker 1:Don't let those things hold you back. Right, like I love you know, he says. I'd rather accept the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore. Yeah, if those ideas are just crushing your head and you cannot ignore them, figure out a way to make it. Figure out a way to do it. And today we have tools to do just about anything. You want to make music, you want to make soundscapes, you want to make a short? You could use your phone to do all those things. It's so much easier today than in 1950, where it's a little more difficult to have this broad range of things that you're creating. Um, I say, find a way to go for it.
Speaker 2:It's, there's never been a better time to be a generalist as opposed to a specialist. You know, let's say I don't know if we've talked about this before. It probably be a good quote to discuss at some point. But there's a really, really great book that I got a lot from as I was considering, you know, transitioning, but it's a book called A Range, by David Epstein I think is the name of the author. But anyway, the basic premise is that it's the generalist who has a taste or a broad range of experiences and backgrounds that can sort of find the intersection, you know, and pick out some of those you know novel uses for you know concepts that make a ton of sense in other spaces, and so you think about from a creative standpoint, from an artistic standpoint. It just kind of makes sense that the more things you try, even if you're not great at that thing like I love videography, I love photography, I may or may not ever try to do anything you know that I put out in the world, apart from just, you know, filming myself, making art and taking pictures, you know, but that's like, just as an example, my understanding of my basic understanding of lighting, you know, from a, from a film or, you know, photography standpoint, you know, certainly informs my. The way that I, you know, use light, everything you know, one hand washes the other, everything leads to the, to the next thing, you know, and I think that, um, that's a really um, yeah, that last part that you talked about, you know, just the, I'd rather accept the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore. So I don't know for sure, I mean the fact that he was, you know, an addict and struggled with that. That was, that's documented. I don't know for sure if he's also ADD or ADHD, as I identify, but that's a very like ADD sort of thing to say.
Speaker 2:Right, the irresistible possibilities, you know, and that's I mean personally again, like why, why I feel a spirit to so much, so many of his philosophies and ways of thinking, is they are irresistible. I think that's probably a characteristic, the more I've had a chance to get to know and learn about other artists. That seems to be another common thread that not everybody shares. Common thread that not everybody shares, but but certainly just, uh, an excitement of, of the mundane, or the easily, easily distractibility of, oh, I wonder, wonder about this, or I wonder about that, that he certainly had. There's a quote that that's um, uh, another one of his that I wanted to share, kind of along this same vein. But uh, he said, I really feel sorry for people who think things like soap dishes or mirrors or Coke bottles are ugly because they're surrounded by. Things like soap dishes or mirrors or coke bottles are ugly because they're surrounded by things like that all day long and it must make them miserable and I think that's just a fantastic quote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great, you know it's like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like but kind of back to that whole um, you know, idea of not necessarily wanting to work with materials that already had a, you know, were already beautiful inherently, you know, necessarily, or considered, you know, to fill in or, you know, meet the standard definition of beauty. You know, but that's just one of those things. You know that when you're willing to, you know, chase your curiosity and try different, I mean, that's one of the things, you know. I shared this with you the other day. But you know how we got to know each other and originally meet with me. You know how, how we got to know each other and originally meet with me.
Speaker 2:You know, being in your mentorship program, that was one of the biggest things that attracted me and I was like I want to apply, you know, I want to, I want to learn from this guy, because I looked at your body of work and I looked at the diversity of materials and mediums and different things that you had worked and I said, okay, this is somebody who you know can, definitely who I can learn a lot from, because I, you know, I'm still I'm still figuring things out, you know, but one thing I know for sure is that I'm never going to be, you know, the artist that that finds one thing and just, you know, does that one and does that one thing.
Speaker 2:You know indefinitely, no disrespect to people that that have found their saying and and mine, that you know indefinitely, but that's I know for sure. That's not going to, you know, be me. So, um, anyway, I just I love hearing Rauschenberg talk about just the irresistible possibilities of what I can't ignore, because to me that's a really empowering thing to realize. Oh okay, what was back to the ADD thing, what was a, uh, a limitation to me, you know, certainly in other areas of life, is actually a tremendous strength that can be leveraged, you know, especially in this creative space.
Speaker 1:Sure, going back to you just talking about, you know, my bodies of work and things, and just from a studio perspective, I really identify with what Robert Ruschenberg says in that first part of working in the direction until I know how to do it and then I stop part of working in the direction until I know how to do it and then I stop when I.
Speaker 1:When I first heard him say that, you know I really it hit home for me because I don't know how I got to that point. Maybe because I just spent so much time when I really went full time in the studio to study and listening and watching and learning from, as I call them, my dead peers from the past. And you know I've really made that a part of my practice. It just became part of I wouldn't say I made it, it became part of it. I will jump in on a direction and I will go full force and make 20, 30 paintings, you know, in that direction, each one hopefully growing after the next, and you know a lot of them. Failures, some of them successes very few, great, very few.
Speaker 2:Hopefully some good work there. Those are all the places where we agree with something. No, that's perfect.
Speaker 1:You know that's the support we need from our, from our artist peers. But all of a sudden, I get to this point where, like Bobby says he's bored or understands it, I either go you know what time for the next thing I'm, I'm over this or, oh my gosh, I understand where I'm going and I'm not there yet. So it's got to switch, it's got to, it's got to change and now develop this way, even though it didn't work that way. And so it's like you know, understanding using those interchangeably right Bored doesn't mean it's not working right. You know what I mean. Board means I've used up all that I have to give within this, and it's taking me to this place now, and now I'm able to go with this place and keep rolling.
Speaker 2:so you kind of mentioned it, but I think it'd be valuable for um for you to to talk a little bit more about how does one keep oneself from getting from feeling like they have to stay in a certain you know lane, right, because maybe it comes more naturally to some you know, than than others, but there is sort of a certain you know, uh, there are some external pressures to you know, to get figure out your thing and then, and then just do that thing Right.
Speaker 1:For most of us, this is the most exciting time to be an artist, you know, in that emerging or beginning stages, because you don't have those pressures. Um, you have your own personal on unneeded pressures of performing for Instagram or performing for social media or what you think is watching you in the invisible shadows in your studio or wherever you work. If you find success in the art world and by success I don't mean being rich, I mean by having work that is being seen and shown in galleries and things like that and selling here and there there's going to be a pressure that's going to settle in to perform or to continue to create that thing which is selling. Right, you sell three paintings that have similar feels.
Speaker 1:A lot of artists get then stuck in the trap and I'm not saying that this is wrong. If an artist decides oh, I'm going to continue to do this because I can make money, because, gosh, we're in this because we love it, but we also need to make money doing it. We can't just flail at the wind and not make any money with our work. So there is that pressure that will come of I need to continue to create this, to sell work, and you can fall in a major trap of just doing that and then getting stuck there and not leaving it. And I have plenty of artists, friends, who get to that point and are very unhappy with life and studio time because they're performing and they're having to create what's selling rather than creating their new ideas and the new experiments and really growing beyond where they were.
Speaker 1:And a lot of them get bored with it. I mean, imagine you know the times when you're working on something and you're bored. Imagine if that was your nine to five every day, right For a year, creating work that you're bored with. I mean, we've lost so many artists to suicide in the past because that becomes a debilitating mental pressure on top of the things that we experience as artists as well in our solitude. So, yeah, be be really careful If I think.
Speaker 2:I mean it's interesting too. I mean, I think you know, one of the things that that I think is so inspiring about just the opportunity to, to be, uh, an artist is is the um, the lifespan of, I mean, apart from you know, I mean obviously lifestyle choices, you know, play into that, but you see so many artists that that um, that continue working I mean most right until until they die, and that's not the kind of thing I mean. If you think about a more whatever nine to five or traditional, you know career or job path, you know we're sprinting for that finish line Like man. As soon as I have 66 and a half or whatever, whatever the number, as soon as I can get that pension, that retirement, as soon as I don't have to do this crap that I don't love doing on a daily basis, I'm done.
Speaker 2:You know art should never be that way and of course there's going to be mundane aspects of the day-to-day like I freaking hate. You know cleaning up and organizing and all of the stuff around. You know emails and whatever, all the stuff that goes along with just, you know, being a professional at whatever you're, whatever you're trying to do, um, but the work itself, you know, should, for the most part, really energize you. You know, and I think it's evident in Rauschenberg's work that you know, he was excited to keep creating, you know, as, as long as he lived, when it's.
Speaker 1:You know, it's funny to me to always think back to going. Yeah, but he had Jasper Johns inside Twombly in his studio every day. Right and so. But you're like, but wait, not many people knew who they were at that point. Maybe they, you know, were in Betty Parsons gallery and getting you know some big shows and things, but this, the way they're remembered today, is nowhere near how people viewed them then.
Speaker 1:Right and so you think about you know yourself as a young artist and you know we'll always say we're not talking age, we're not talking young as 20. Like, we're talking work. Young artists, immature, mature. They were young artists then. Right, they were immature in their work. They're feeding off of each other. And here you have Jasper Johns, cy Twombly and Robert Rauschenberg who are in each other's studios, traveling the world together, you know, discussing things. I mean some of my favorite photographs of Cy Twombly, the black and white piece. You know, photographs were pictures that Rauschenberg took in Rome, so it's like, that's like they were. They're in the same place that we're in and right today, when you're visiting your buddy's studio or your girlfriend's studio or your friend's studio and you're hanging out together and doing these things, like that's what they were doing then.
Speaker 1:But yet, because we know them now in our history, we look back and go what Are you kidding me? They had no idea they were going to be where they are today, had no idea, but they stayed with it, kept working, kept experimenting. I mean I've been in rare form this week in the studio. I mean I've been in rare form this week in the studio, like I mean I've been dancing and just like, so full of joy, creating. And I've had a couple monumental failures in experiments in the last week, like monumental working, trying to work with ash and acrylics and make texture and it didn't bond well and it all cracked. It was great when it was wet and it looked fantastic, but it all cracked and it's all. So they're done right, they right there.
Speaker 1:I may hold on to them, I may toss them, I don't know, but I've still just been in the state of joy and just, you know, lou reed cranked up to 11 and dancing in the studio and just having a blast, you know ton of bowie records on and just like enjoying life. But then there are the moments that there's the weeks where it's just like I feel, like I weigh, you know, have 600 pounds of lead on my shoulders when I walk in the studio and I'm dragging my feet and not knowing what to do, and so it's funny you mentioned Bowie, I was just I just last night I rewatched, uh, the life aquatic with Steve Zissou.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's just so good.
Speaker 2:So that's what made me think of that. Yep, um, but you're talking about your time in the studio and this, this reminds me of something.
Speaker 2:you had a chance to obviously be with you, uh, for a couple of days and visit your studio a couple of months ago, having seen a lot of your work, of course you know on a, on a screen and online, but having a chance to really get my nose in it and see it, um, and you've got some work there from from different periods, which was really cool. You know some from from quite quite some time ago. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this because you've been at this a lot longer than I. Have something you said earlier, and feel free to correct me, cause I'm going to miss, you know, uh, whatever quote you, but you said something to the effect of you know, once I take something to a certain point and then I decide to, you know, move on from, from that, but you don't forget, right, Like I, I'm going to make a statement and then I'm going to put it to you as a question, but, like I'm guessing, tell me, you know, true or false, but I'm guessing you don't forget the things that you've tried, the things that you've worked, because, um, not only do you have your journals, but you've got all the work to look at and say, oh yeah, that's what I did.
Speaker 2:You know with, with that and, and you can always sort of pick up wherever you may have left off, even if it was multiple years or series. You know beforehand, right, like there's always going to be that through line. In other words, you've already acquired that, it's in your, it's in your, your arsenal, so to speak. Is that? Is that true?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, I mean. And I, you know, I spend a lot of time really listening and talking to the work too and really taking mental inventory of things while I'm working on it, before, after, during, you know. And there are times like I just moved a lot of my work that I have in my studio storage. I moved it from the front half to the back half this last week. So going back while I'm moving each piece, you know, and thinking through when I made it, why I made it, why does that not hold any anything today compared to then? Why am I not, you know? And there were certain pieces I go, oh, I can't believe I did that, but I'm glad I did. And there are other pieces I go, oh, huh, interesting. Okay, you know what I mean. And and to have that inventory come up in the story and you know why I was doing it.
Speaker 1:But the work that you make in the past isn't for not, it's all important. It doesn't matter how shitty it is or how really strong it may be. It all has a place and it all has a purpose. Not only is that your personal history, that's your timeline right. Art intersects with life period. There's no way anybody can say it doesn't, it does. So it's also your life story that you're looking at in the past too, and I'm constantly going back and looking at old work, you know, and I think it's a measure for me it's just a measuring too of wow, I really have grown yeah, I really have grown from this from 2014 or 2016, 2017.
Speaker 1:And I go, man, I laid it, made a lot of work. Um, I think that's one thing I always look back on and I'm always think I didn't make that much work this year. Man, have I even been doing anything? Always think I didn't make that much work this year. Man, have I even been doing anything? And then, all of a sudden, I look at my inventory list and I go, whoa, I made a lot more work than I thought I did, which I think is a good thing, because it's means that mentally, I'm so focused on what I'm doing I'm not really realizing the output, because I'm just constantly accepting those irresistible possibilities of things I can't ignore and I'm just rolling with work. Way to bring it full circle.
Speaker 2:Well done, you know that. That's one thing too, that that that you definitely helped me with was, um, I think, um and I'm sure we'll talk about some some Austin Cleon, uh quotes at some point but just the idea of sharing your work, but whether or not you choose to share it, point, but just the idea of sharing your work, but whether or not you choose to share it. You know, I've become a big proponent for capturing video. Um, you know, again, whether or not you're going to post it or share it, but man, that's, that's like game film. I posted about this recently, but I was really thinking about, like, all right, I was re, re, re editing a video that I'd done and in preparation for a series that I'm starting, where I had experimented with a lot of new material. You know, like taking the, you know the the burnt pallets and dipping them in in in resin and trying to figure out how it's all going to going to work out.
Speaker 2:And I'm not somebody who's like, my process is far from scientific. While I'm doing it, I'm not freaking, taking notes and measurements. You know what I mean. Yeah, but when you've got that, that game film, right, like you know athletes, you know they watch a lot of game film. You know they watch back what worked, what didn't.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's do more of what worked. Hey, let's not do what what didn't work. And what does it look like? What does it feel like? You know, in in in both, both camps. But, you know, having that available in addition to, of course, the work and the journals, but being able to watch back and say, oh, okay, cool, because that for me, you know, like, as I'm chasing down those irresistible possibilities that in many cases just sort of, like you know, occur in the moment that I didn't have planned out I mean or or or anticipated that's really valuable, because I think that that then lends itself to being able to carry that forward into, you know, future work, if you do indeed want to try and you know, replicate something that actually, you know did indeed work.
Speaker 1:Well, we I mean, we have plenty of tools we can use today to be our own encyclopedias, right, as Austin Cleon says, be a documentarian of what you do gather, gather, gather, store, store, store and then run it through a checklist of um. Is this worth sharing? Is it not worth sharing? Could it be worth sharing? You know, and um, really, I film for a lot of reasons. You know, I'm kind of a uh, I don't know how to word it uh, an idiot dreamer, I guess. In a way, it's like well, if I make it someday and somebody wants to make a documentary of my life, story and art, they're going to have a ton of video to choose from, you know, so, like, I'm a big dreamer, though on a level that I feel like I don't know. I mean, I was born a dreamer, I'm always dreaming things. But I mean, deep inside, you know, I want to be really great at what I do, whether I'm recognized or not. Right, it's like I could be, we all could have that chance to be recognized someday for what we create. Um, a lot of us will, not very few of us will. Man, I sure want to be that will, and so that just drives me right, it drives me to create and to keep pushing, to keep going, whether I'm recognized or not, for myself right, for my own sanity, for my own confidence, I'm going to drive myself to the ground, working as hard as I can to try and be, hopefully, that someday I don't know where I mean listen, we don't know where we're going to fall. We don't make the decisions of the art world right. We're so far removed from the decision makers that it's insane. But I do believe that if you work your ass off and you continually put time and effort into growing and experimenting and trying to find something in there and you put it out to the world and as many opportunities and ways that you can today, there's a chance. You're giving yourself a lot more chance to be recognized or be found if you're not putting it out there to the world. Yeah, you know, it's the.
Speaker 1:In that conversation of the video, the interview we watched with Leo Castelli, the interviewer asked how did you get into the Betty Parsons gallery? Yeah, right. And he says oh, oh well, I walked in there with all my heart and I said to hey, betty. And she said I only look at work on Tuesdays, or something like that. He goes well. I'm here and she looked at his work. Would you be willing to?
Speaker 2:pretend it's a Tuesday, right Right.
Speaker 1:So it's like you know that doesn't work today. Don't do that. Please don't do that. Artists, if you're listening in that, don't do that. But the boldness, right, Like that boldness of I'm going to take my art to the people that notice art, Right, Right, we have a lot of different ways we can do that today, Intelligently, not like the dumb artist I'm sorry if I've just tabbed any of you listening don't go into the gallery. Don't go find the gallery owner and tell them you're an artist and ask if you can bring your art in from your car. Yeah, Um, unless they invite you to do that, Right, Um, and and maybe we'll have an entire episode just discussing those things, um, down down the road with some with some good quotes about how to how to actually do that.
Speaker 2:Well, I like that, though, as a, as a, as we kind of wrap up and bring things into the more you know, sort of tangible takeaway, um, you know category, just that. I mean I'm just thinking about what we're doing right now, just like we have no idea if anyone's going to be interested in. I mean, as as of recording, we have not posted a single episode. Yeah, we have no idea if anyone's going to be interested in this or if we're going to be able to, uh, whatever, if this is going to go anywhere. But it's worth trying. We both enjoy having conversations about art and are willing to put it out there and just kind of see what happens, right? So, um, I think that irresistible possibility I mean, if I were, I'll I'll turn it over to you in a moment for last, last thoughts here, but I think if I had one, it would be just, uh, just encouraging.
Speaker 2:You know, anybody who's who's got a desire to do anything creative like, keep chasing down those irresistible possibilities of of what you can't, and don't be afraid, um, you know, to try things that that may not ever work because, as we've discussed this entire episode, you just never know. You know what's going to hit, what's going to kind of light that fire or ignite the next thing. That could be the thing, right, even if the thing you're doing at that moment, um, may not end up being quote, unquote it it's gonna, it's, it's all, it's all positive momentum, you know, in the direction that you're trying to go.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and to piggyback on that, make your own opportunities. You can make your own opportunities before opportunities are created for you. Yeah, you know, do a house show. You know I. I did a house show here locally last year with a group of friends of mine. Two incredible female artists put on a house show of friends of ours and they had emptied out the house, had work in the house, had work in the garage, set up a great area for people to hang out in the middle in between. It was just such a I mean, oh, I will do a house show any day of the week.
Speaker 1:There's nothing more enjoyable than just hanging out with people and talking about art in a non-pressure filled environment where it's literally just focused on the art, nothing else. It's not focused on work, selling, not focusing on is the press going to write a good story? You know what I mean. It's like just fun, you know, drinking wine, sitting outside, talking about your work, talking about the other artists, work, meeting people you don't know from timing. Create your own opportunities. You can. You know I, you know I say this all the time to everybody like show, work, show, work, show, work, show, work, show, work. Doesn't matter where it is Cafe restaurant gallery. One of my One of my former mentees had her first solo show in Germany and she approached a restaurant hey, can I do a show? They said yes and she had a solo show. It doesn't matter if it's at a restaurant, it doesn't matter where it is it's a show.
Speaker 1:A show is a show is a show. Fill that resume out your own, your own opportunities. Do something fun. Go set up work at a park and invite all your friends and do an outdoor show to park like. Create your opportunities. You can. You can do it yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then back to what we said before too right, there's never been a better time, you know. There's never been fewer, you know, sticking points or gatekeepers to like we didn't have to ask anybody's permission to start making a podcast. We don't again. I have no idea if anyone's going to be interested in listening to it or watching it, but nothing prevented us from trying and starting it, and just you and I do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do this on a regular basis anyways on the phone, so it's like or by text message hey, did you see this quote? Hey, we watched this interview, so why not just talk about it and see if anybody else is interested? That's it.
Speaker 2:That's it. Um, that's awesome. I think that. Uh, that wraps it up for me, Unless you have anything else you want to close out with. Nope Go make smart Love it. See y'all next time.
