Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Copy, Steal, and Become: Why Great Artists Take What They Need: Basquiat, David Bowie, Wes Anderson, Sylvia Plath and others.
From Jan 2024. Dive into the provocative world of artistic "theft" as Ty and Nathan explore how creative innovation truly emerges from our influences. This conversation challenges the myth of pure originality, arguing instead that the greatest artists throughout history have been masterful collectors and transformers of ideas.
Beginning with Japanese fashion designer Yohji Yamamoto's transformative quote—"Start copying what you love... at the end of the copy you will find yourself"—the duo examines how creative development flourishes through strategic borrowing. From Quentin Tarantino's open acknowledgment of film references to David Bowie's musical influences, the most distinctive voices often emerge from those who've absorbed the most diverse inspirations.
They unpack wisdom from creative legends including Jim Jarmusch, Paul Schrader, and Jean-Luc Godard, who all emphasize that true originality lies not in where you take ideas from, but where you take them to. Art movements throughout history—from Impressionism to Abstract Expressionism—evolved through artists stealing ideas from each other while working side by side, proving that innovation rarely emerges in isolation.
What distinguishes mere imitation from transformative theft? When does copying become finding your voice? The conversation offers practical advice for artists at every stage: diversify your influences, document what moves you and why, maintain an "omnivorous" approach to inspiration, and create systems to capture ideas when they strike. Ultimately, the episode makes a compelling case that the most authentic artistic expression comes not from avoiding influence, but from embracing it wholeheartedly.
Follow us on Instagram @ty_nathan_clark and @nathanturborg to continue exploring how creative influences shape artistic development.
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what's going on? Ty you ready? Yeah, listen, I don't want to oversell it, but I do have my creative juices flowing today, nice so awesome, you got this for me and I'm pretty excited so the caffeine kicks a little harder when you drink it from the creative juice mug.
Speaker 2:Yep, absolutely. Mine's a little out of reach right now, so I'm just going to have to weather the storm. I didn't think about that before I got set up, but I will say today's topic, I think, is going to be full of quotes, not just one or two. I think we're going to probably have a pretty good-sized backpack full of quotes. So, if you're listening, write down some of the names that you hear, because there will be some that you do know and there may be some that you're not aware of, and we're probably going to pull from artists, fashion designers, writers, poets, art educators. I mean, I think we're going to be all over the board as we talk about one of my favorite subjects that at times can be quite controversial, depending on where you are in your art journey, and so we're going to go to Japan for our initial quote. That's going to start our conversation. Are you ready to roll with that, nathan? Let's rock and roll, yeah fire away.
Speaker 2:So this quote is coming from one of the world's most known fashion designers from Japan, yohi Yamamoto. Part of my family is Japanese. My sister-in-law is from Tokyo and she's in the fashion industry, so I know she'll be excited about this one. Yohi is a Japanese fashion designer in Tokyo and Paris and he started out really as a master tailor alongside some very well-known tailors and fashion designers and he's won multiple awards for his contributions to fashion.
Speaker 2:Born in Tokyo, graduated from Keio University with a degree in law actually in 1966, gave up his legal career to help his mom in the dressmaking business and I love this story and that's where he learned how to be a tailor, basically. And then he further went on to study fashion design at Bunker Fashion College and got a degree in 1969. And this quote I've read in multiple books, like they seem to kind of bounce around in multiple books and this quote says multiple books. And this quote says start copying what you love, copy, copy, copy, copy and at the end of the copy you will find yourself and like I said, this is a controversial subject amongst artists Stealing, copying, looking at lots of art, these things can create quite hefty conversations. How do you feel about this?
Speaker 1:I'm for it, I'm pro-stealing, I'm pro-copying Like screw it, just go for it. No, it's not quite that simple, but you've had a lot of conversations with young artists in your mentorship program and I know this is something that you talk about a lot. So let's just maybe start with why it's pretty obvious, but let's just break down why it's controversial or what the two sides of the coin might be.
Speaker 2:Well, no artist wants to be labeled another artist. All artists want to be original and want to find originality within their work, and I think the goal of every artist is can I discover something new? And you're probably not going to. There are new ideas in art, there are new things in art, but completely rediscovering something new that comes, those are few and far between in the history of art. Right, we know those names, we have their pictures on our wall, their quotes in our books.
Speaker 2:But when you want to be a great artist, you have got to steal and copy. That's practice, that's educating yourself, not just your brain, but also your technique, your gesture, your movement, how you paint. And we're all influenced by something Our subconscious stores the things that we love in our head more and more. So, even if you say I will never copy, I will never steal, you are copying and you are stealing because your subconscious is holding on to your observations and it's coming through in what you create and what I'm saying and what the quotes we're going to talk about today is saying. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how you go from being okay to good to great, from weak to strong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know. It's funny when you mentioned that there's probably only one artist in the history of history who can actually claim originality, and that would be whichever cave, you know, man or woman first, you know made the mark on the wall, who probably saw somebody draw with a stick in the sand. You know before that.
Speaker 2:Like but?
Speaker 1:but everything you know from that point forward has been in some way inspired or influenced by by something else or some other things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, by something else or some other things. Well, go ahead. No, go for it, you go.
Speaker 1:Well, what else do you like about like why I know you love that quote what else do you love about that Like, break that down, even, I think, a little bit further.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, we should all know where we want to be as an artist, but that takes time, right? No-transcript at everything. You should still be going to the galleries and looking at the best landscape artists in history. Why did they do that? How did they do this? If you just go out and set up your canvas and just start painting, right, you're going to be able to paint. But you still have to learn, and that's why some artists go to art school. That's why some artists stay and get their MFAs and do those things.
Speaker 2:You know, as an abstract artist, there are so many artists that I love and I have this wonder of how in the world did Cy Twombly write the way he wrote on canvas? Or how did he do the marks that he make? How did Joan Mitchell build her gestures, or build the cooning, create those gestures in their work? And so you practice them because you love them and it does something to and you want your art to be or fit within that realm of those artists and how their work looks, and you have to practice. So what are you going to do? You're going to copy right, like Yohi says, or steal. I'm stealing the way that Psy makes his whatever. But here's the deal. This is what I love about the quote At the end of the copy you'll find yourself. At the end of it, you'll find yourself Like I just love that quote.
Speaker 2:And then Jeff Goines, the writer, has a book, um, that is called I have it right here, just so I um, real artists don't starve. And there's a, there's a quote that he has in there where he says the best artists steal, but they do so elegantly, borrowing ideas from many sources and arranging them in new and interesting ways. You have to know your craft so well that you can build on the work of your predecessors, adding to the body of existing work. So you're stealing, but you're doing it elegantly. You're borrowing ideas, but you're rearranging those ideas in new ways and interesting ways.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you how many times I've heard this and said it myself, from art school graduates or MFA students Not a lot of MFA students, but a lot of art grads for sure Especially when you're young. I said it I'm not looking at art, I'm not going to go look at any art, because I want to be original. And I love this Cicero quote where it says to be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain a child. If you want to mature, you better be studying what came before you. You better be studying what came before you, you better be looking, and if you really want to be mature, grab all those ideas and start to create you over time through all those ideas. Right, david Bowie, the only art I study is the art I can steal from Quentin Tarantino.
Speaker 1:I've stolen from every movie ever made. Yeah, I mean from every movie ever made. Yeah, I mean that's a great one I don't know I've had a chance to listen to. I mean he's a great. He's a great interview.
Speaker 2:I mean he loves the sound of his own voice.
Speaker 1:He's got interesting things to say, but when he talks about, like his, his consumption of film and the encyclopedia he is, you know, of different references is astounding.
Speaker 2:Astounding.
Speaker 1:So like, and his style is distinctive, you know, to his own, like you know, I don't think anyone's going to accuse him of um, you know, being, you know whatever derivative in a negative way, um, but because he can, he's consumed so much and paid attention and studied. You know what he loves from different elements of film. That's what has, you know, to the original quote. Copying, copying, copying, just being influenced, absorbing, you know, different ideas and different styles and different influences led him to what has become, you know, one of the most distinctive and most copied styles that there's ever been, right.
Speaker 2:And he gives it credit, right. Here's a difference. Yeah, the difference is the artist who steals and copies and claims it as completely their own ideas, right, and it looks just like X, y and Z's work, right. So that's where Jerry Saltz would say copy, steal, copy, steal. Keep trying, show it to a friend. If your friend tells you it looks just like somebody else's work, keep going, bring it back to him again. If over time, they're still saying it looks like somebody else's work, go find another thing to do. You just don't have it. But I love like. But Quentin Tarantino, he gives it credit, right. Spaghetti, westerns, the old Kung Fu films, seven Samurai, like he'll literally name. This is where I got this. This is where I got this.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you've ever watched the side-to-side comparisons of Wes Anderson's influences and scenes in his films. It's magical Peanuts. He was a huge Peanuts fan. He was a huge Peanuts fan. So there's scenes in his films that are literally taken from Charles Schultz cartoons and represented within the scene. French films, a lot of French films. You can watch on YouTube side-by-side comparisons of his influences with certain scenes in his films and he's given shout-outs, right. Yeah, you've influenced me. I give shout-outs, you know what I mean, man, there's a lot of sigh in this work and it came out because I've been reading all of his books and so it's coming out in there, and I've had people wow, that piece looks like a side twombly piece. Oh, that piece looks like an antony tapas piece, and I say thank you so much for that. They're one of my heroes and it definitely came out in my work and I'm proud of it, so right.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, no, that's powerful. Wes Anderson uh, another great example of, like a super distinctive signature style. But not, you know, he didn't wake up one day and just just, it didn't just come out right out of nowhere, it was a product of, um, what he had collected over time. All right, I'm gonna throw one out. You're way ahead of me. So this is one of my favorite quotes um, on this, on this subject, and um. This is a quote by paul schrader, who's a screenwriter, director, uh, worked with scorsese on four different films, including Raging Bull, taxi Driver, last Temptation of Christ, american Gigolo. Most recently did the Card Counter. Have you seen that yet? I haven't watched it yet. It was Oscar Isaacs, right, is that who? Yeah, it's fantastic, yeah, and then first performed with Ethan Hawke from a couple of years ago. It was another, another awesome one, but I didn't realize this until I did a little homework here. He's from Grand Rapids, michigan, and graduated from Calvin college, so I'm pretty sure, uh, he's, uh, he's one of my people, one of my Dutch, dutch descendants settled in.
Speaker 1:Grand Rapids, michigan. So anyway, here's a quote. He said, um, and this is uh, I'm not going to read the entire thing, but he references numerous films that had influenced, and this is an interview after First Reform came out. He said I was stealing all over the place. The secret of stealing is that you have to steal around. You can't go back to the same 7-Eleven every time they catch you. So you go to the floral shop, then you go to the gas station, then you go to that hot dog stand that nobody goes to, and you keep grabbing this stuff and eventually somebody will think you made it up.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I just love that, right. So I mean, it's just. It's just, you just think about, you know, somebody who's literally going from store to store and, and you know, trying to diversify their uh, you know where they're, where they're pulling things from, but I just love that. And that's actually from a podcast that I would recommend the Moment with Brian Koppelman Really good podcast, but that was an interview that he did back in May of 2018. So that whole interview is fantastic, but I love that quote because you just think about being diverse in your influences. I mean, this is going to be a common theme, right. If you pull from just one thing, then it is kind of just like you know that one thing.
Speaker 1:You know one of the things I want to ask you about, cause you've talked about this. You know as well, but early in your art career, where you were, you know, hard and heavy on on Basquiat, right? Oh, and how did that what I mean? So let me ask a better question how did that what I mean? So let me ask a better question how did that sort of you know evolve over time from and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but from what I? What my understanding was that was your predominant, you know, or primary influence to now. You know, however, many years later, where it's a lot more diverse and you've stolen from more stores.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, we didn't know who Bosqueiat was in the 90s. If you're in New York and you were in the art scene, you knew who Basquiat was. If you were in places where the art scene was big, you knew who Basquiat was, but he wasn't. You know, jean-michel was not your Jackson Pollock name at the time in the 90s, right Like we in art school, we all knew who Jackson Pollock was. We didn't know who Basquiat was and he wasn't talked about.
Speaker 2:Well, the wonderful film by Julian Schnabel about Basquiat came out, the narrative film, and it rocked my world, like completely rocked my world. I had no idea what neo-expression is or was at that time, no clue. I didn't know who Julian Schnabel was. I didn't know who any of the. I didn't even know who the informalists were at that time, like, I had no idea. I knew abstract art, abstract expressionism, the things I loved and they're the typical names that you would know, right, an abstract art or abstract expression. And I love Dadaism, I love surrealism, those things as a young, you know art student and, honestly, when I saw the film Boschia, I don't know what happened to me, Like something inside, about this person who I couldn't at that time I could not name a black artist if anybody asked me to. And that is horrible. And it wasn't just that I didn't know any black artists, they weren't being taught about. Nobody knew Like it was. Nobody was teaching about any black artists at that time in art history books. Right, this is terrible.
Speaker 2:And so man diving and painting on wood and building frames like stretchers, like he did, I emulated him and I started writing around campus with chalk and markers. I started writing my own quotes, my Samo-type quotes, and my favorite quote from the film or one of his old Samo graffiti pieces, was Samo for president, samo's political ideology, like all the things that he would write all over New York with his buddy Al Diaz. And I started writing things and making up my own quotes.
Speaker 2:Art is an oven at 450 degrees in 15 minutes, like making up my own things and writing Samo for prez, and my nickname kind of became Samo for prez, and so it was like it just, and everything I did was that kind of neo-expressionist style. But that's what really excited me about art and how I could express myself in this way was spray paint and oil sticks and things I never even thought to use in art and I mean, that was my, that was my big intro for sure, and I copied everything. It didn't look just like it, but it looked. You could tell. Oh, he likes Basquiat.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, yeah, and I think that's important to. I mean, you got to start somewhere, right, I mean. But one of the things that you you mentioned to me was, or that you just said that that, uh, that really landed was just how one thing leads to another, right, so maybe that film was what led you to, you know, looking into the novels, right, um, and I think it's important to, if there's a um, you know, probably a few different takeaways from today, but that's one of the things that I think is really important to emphasize is the value of chasing your curiosity and just going where those rabbit holes lead, you know, because one thing leads to the next thing leads to the next thing and, um, I mean, there's there's never been a better time to to be omnivorous in your consumption of different influences, right, like you know, youtube's pretty damn good at guessing. You know, when you look at one thing there, you know what I didn't know. I wanted to see that, but I actually did and thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Instagram is terrible at it.
Speaker 1:As good as YouTube is. That's about how bad Instagram is, that's. That's, that's very, very true. But, um, it just chased those rabbit holes, you know, and and and chased down you know where, where, where it might, because it may be the original thing that you stick with. That becomes a major influence, but it's, it may be the third, fourth, fifth, 17th thing down the line that actually ends up being, you know, a more significant. You know long term, you know influence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and here's a quote that I love by Jean-Luc Godard it's not where you take things from, it's where you take them to right, and that I love that. Run that back.
Speaker 2:I want to hear that again so it's not where you take things from, it's where you take them to, because I mean, I look at so much art, man. I look at so much art and I read about so much art every day and I'm taking bits and pieces with me from every section that I read off. And and what do I do? I spent, you know, four, five, six, eight hours in the studio every day painting, and I've got this collection of ideas and techniques and how people use medium and how they created, why they did this, what size, what scale, what material Like. I've got all these things in there that I'm grabbing and taking and, oh my gosh, paper on canvas, on paper, on cardboard.
Speaker 2:But it's not about who I'm taking it from. It's like, where am I going with it? And over time the goal is over time it becomes you. But you're also furthering the ripple of water of what was created before and you're taking it in places that maybe could have never gone before. Another quote I love by Gary Panter says, and it goes with this one if you have one person you're influenced by, everyone will say you're the next whoever, but if you rip off a hundred people, everyone will say you're original.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and that's so important too. Actually, I got two things. I may be able to hold on to both of them, I may not. All right, I want to. I don't want to forget this, so so talk. So what your previous quote as far as, uh, you know where you take things to? Um talk about how every significant movement, with very few exceptions, came from a group of artists who spent a lot of time together, who spent time in each other's studios, who would show one another their work and would respond to Right. So, um, talk more about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean go back and read art history and you'll find those groups right, you've got, um. I'll just go to the impressionist Manny Monet, degas, burt Madette, all around each other's studios, all seen each other's work, um, and all influenced the direction of impressionism, which I think we've talked about in a past podcast. But most people don't know that Burt Madette, the female, was one of the largest influences on that group of men. Right, and it's like the things she started doing in painting. They saw, they loved, they stole her ideas. You know what I mean, because they're all in each other's studios every day. Wow, look at that, let's do this, I'll do this Now. They got credit for it. She's starting to get credit for it today, but they got the most credit for it. They're the most notable.
Speaker 2:But it influenced what changed art at that time. You know you fast forward, even to the Surrealists. Get together and they create their own manifesto. If you're going to create Surrealism, you must sign on the dotted line and it must follow these things right. You got the Dadaists, you got this group of artists.
Speaker 2:You've got, you know, the abstract expressionists from New York that all hung out together and spent time together and influenced each other, and I can read so many artists from the 20s, from Joe Miro and all the guys around him. We're like we're just trying to be Picasso, like we were all trying to be Picasso. We copied everything he did for a while because we wanted to be like him, and it's funny that the history of art is shaped by these things and these movements. Right, it's a group of artists stealing ideas from each other, you know, and working together, and obviously there's ugliness that is a part of that as well, but it is how things become developed over time. But some of them have similarities in their work, but you can tell who is who as well, because all those ideas still came from them and all they were taking. They continued to develop their own style out of these things they were taking and stealing from.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the other big thing that's worth discussing. On this, there's only one you that's going to process and express those influences a certain way. Yep, it could only come from you at a certain point, when you've looked to enough different sources.
Speaker 2:Well, and the great educator and artist John Baldessari said I think it's copying when you don't add anything to it. Sure.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's what you're saying, right it's, you're taking these ideas and you're developing your own style out of it. You know we work on this a lot in my mentorship program, you know, as artists are like well, I don't know what my voice is, I don't know where I am. Well, what do you love? Yeah, I don't know what my voice is, I don't know where I am. Well, what do you love? Yeah, what work do you love?
Speaker 2:You know what I have artists like well, I don't know, but this is what I feel, this is the art that I'm drawn to, and it's like well, maybe you're more of a minimalist than you are an abstract expressionist, because the thoughts and the things you're telling me fit more under minimalist ideas and things than really heavy, thick, abstract expressionist ideas. And that artist will go and then study minimalism and go, wow, yes and no, right, I do feel this, but I also want to express deep opinions and things. Maybe I'm an abstract minimalist, right, and you kind of create your own. You know where you're going and what you're doing. I've got another artist in a program right now who you know is dealing with studying trauma and neuroscience, things like that, and she's kind of developing her own terms for what she is in her art and what she creates, and we're looking at all these other artists and influences and practicing the things that they do to turn them into your ideas and into your practice, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Well, it totally does. Yeah, and one of the things that, um, that I definitely learned, um from my time in the program with you was how and we've, we've, this has come up a lot. I suspect it probably will a lot going forward as well. But just that whole idea of getting permission to do it because hey, so-and-so did it, yeah, right, like why, you know, now, I'm not claiming to be as good as whatever artist I might be citing, whatever artists I might be citing, but the fact that they did it gives me permission to do it as well and to try it and to integrate it into everything else that I'm, that I'm taking in, right, well, um, good, and I mean, you know we say that all the time.
Speaker 2:there's no nose in art. Yeah, if you have the idea, if you like something, go do it. Don't. Don't wait for somebody to say there's a right way and a wrong way. Now, on a material basis, there's a right way and a wrong way.
Speaker 2:Certain materials don't go with certain materials Oils, acrylics there's a right way to use it, there's a right way to. You know what I mean. So it's like materials is different, but as far as ideas what you want to create, how you want to create it there are no no's. And if you spend time studying art, you will realize there are no no's. So you know you've got a lot of crazy conceptual things that happen out there that you can argue is an art, is art whatever. But they're not taking no for an answer. They are creating what they feel like they should create and putting it out into the world and it's either accepted or it's not. But they're putting it out into the world and it's either accepted or it's not. But they're putting it out there and the boldness that comes along with that is a whole nother. Conversation for another episode.
Speaker 1:I'm going to throw another quote out. Yeah, um, that kind of pertains to that. This is by a Chris Doe, who is uh, are you familiar with him? By the way, he's? He's a great follow on YouTube and Instagram. He gives a lot of. He's a designer and filmmaker, but he gives a lot of like, really tactical input on how to market, how to sell, how to just talk about your work and be properly compensated for it. So a lot of really good gems. I recommend following him. But he said this is a recent quote, I think I pulled from Instagram but he said everything's a remix To make something new, copy combine and transform, copy combine and transform something old into something new.
Speaker 1:Say or show something old in a new way. And I think this, this kind of, speaks to the value of, of not just diversifying your influences within the art space, for example, but also looking like inspiration is everywhere. I mean when your radar is up like it's all over. Whatever you're into, there's something in there. Yeah, probably a whole bunch of things that you can, you know, sprinkle in. Maybe it's obvious, maybe it appears, or maybe it's just something that you're because you're taking in new things, because you're a student of life in general and just absorbing a diverse set of information and influences, it's going to affect you positively, right?
Speaker 1:So it's funny as I, as I'm reading that just now, I'm thinking about like music and you know what? Uh, you know when hip hop started to sample, you know different things from, from previous. You know eras from the sixties and the seventies specifically, like that became the hook and that became a thing, and taking something totally old not totally old, but something from whatever generations previous and giving it a brand new spin, which in some cases is, you know, much better known than the original. You know source material, right, yeah, but that's because, again back to the, the, the Tarantino reference, because you know those artists were consuming a bunch of different work, I want to stick with music because you and.
Speaker 1:I are both big fans of music, but I don't have a specific reference here. But you think about the number of times that you hear one of your favorite artists when they're asked who their influences are, and they'll say some obvious ones where you're like, oh yeah, I totally hear that. But then you'll also hear somebody like what? Like yeah, that's totally, you can't hear that in their sound at all. And I guess my point is the things that, as visual artists, the things that we take in it may or may not express itself, you know, in the work, but that doesn't mean that the influence isn't there, right?
Speaker 2:And because we're taking those things in, it's giving us a deeper well to kind of music. Do you listen to what rock bands he's like I don't listen to rock. I don't listen to much music outside of classical or old barbershop type, quartet type music and things. And he would even say, obviously we weren't a rock band, led Zeppelin, we were more jazz fusion. He didn't even listen to rock and roll, didn't care for it. You can't tell me that the classical music and the things he didn't listen to didn't influence the progressions and the timing and the things that they were doing at that time in music.
Speaker 2:That was different than so many other people and still last today. On that there's a quote by Marcel Duchamp and he says you think you're actually doing something entirely your own and a year later you look at it and you actually see the roots of where your art comes from, without even knowing at all. So the artist who is doing their homework over time will prove they've done their homework, so to speak, right. And there's plenty of quotes we could go into on. If you're only working with your ideas, you're not going to go very far. But if you're working with a whole lot of ideas, everybody's ideas and you're doing your homework. Your work has ultimate room for growth.
Speaker 1:So I've definitely heard it just in conversation. I've definitely heard artists talk about how they genuinely believe that that they have come up with something completely original. I don't know how many I don't want to use the word famous, but successful. Whatever well-known artists you know would would claim that, but there's some right. So I wonder what's the case to be made for trying to insulate, go in the opposite direction, right? The case for not copying? The case for really trying to genuinely just come up with something that is truly original? Is there a case to be made for that? Because we're both clearly on team copy and steal, right? So let's talk about the other side of the coin. I would say good luck. Is there a merit to that argument is my question.
Speaker 2:I would say good luck, number one. I hope you do it, because that would be amazing In my lifetime. To see somebody create something completely new and original would be fascinating to me. But nobody's going to get there without copying. Like every single artist in history who's developed something new was copying somebody else at some point and stealing from somebody else at some point that helped them transition to where they went.
Speaker 2:You look at every facet of art history through time post, cave painter that created their colors from grounds and spit them on a wall. And I love when Jerry salts talks about the, the origins of art and the way things worked. But it's like post that time. It's stealing, copy and then grow into your own. So every, every major movement and art, you look at those artists and then you look five years prior to them changing the face of art. They look like somebody else or one of their hero's works, right, I mean, that's anything in life. That's music, that's playwriting, that's filmmaking, that's anything in the creative arts, that's dance. Right, there's been constant forms and evolution in dance, and I think breakdancing, hip-hop, stomp, like all these different new forms of dance that have started to show up on TV, show up in films and things where they haven't been recognized before. They're still coming from ancient forms of dance, from African tribes, dance from throughout history that start to form cultural happenings and evolutions within it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm sure we're going to get some pushback in the comments and responses to this. I would love to ask that anybody that wants to make a case for that we're certainly interested in hearing it but cite your sources, like we like I'd love I mean we, we would love to hear you know what would be your examples, not just the, not just being opposed to the idea, but also supporting that with um, you know some, some artists and creatives that have that have done that. You know we talk about how there's never been a better time to to educate yourself and to be influenced by you know a number of different things. There's also never been an easier time for somebody to just steal stuff like literally grab an image and repurpose it. Like we're not pushing for that. That's completely different than what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:Just as a full disclaimer, right, this is another quote that came up when I was so. Speaking of rabbit holes is another quote that came up when I was looking for that. Paul Schrader quote, woody Allen. Well, I've stolen from the best. I mean I've stolen from Bergman, I've stolen from Groucho, I've stolen from Chaplin, I've stolen from Keaton, from Martha Graham, from Fellini. I mean I'm a shameless thief, but again citing your sources and just owning it like yep. You know I've been influenced by a lot of different things.
Speaker 2:I'm going to piggyback with another filmmaker, since we're this is a quote heavy episode. This is from Jim Jarmusch, the great indie New York filmmaker who has been around the New York art scene for a long time with fine artists visual artists, not just musicians and filmmakers. He says nothing's original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work and theft will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable. Originality is non-existent, and don't bother concealing your thievery. Celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what John Luke Goddard said it's not where you take things from, it's where you take them to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that to me is just that really reinforces something that you said earlier, which is, you know, cite your sources, you know honor, you know the nods and the homages you know that you're making to other artists. And funny, I think I was interacting with somebody on Instagram recently and he had some beautiful work and I just commented on this and he, he was a uh, a newer, you know younger artist and I say that's beautiful, like I definitely see the you know X influence in that, and he said, oh, I, just someone just mentioned that to me, you know, the other day and I was like, really, so I have no reason not to, not to, not to believe them, you know. But I think it's important to realize that some of the influences that we have are very conscious, but there's plenty of others that you're soaking stuff up on a subconscious level regardless. So might as well educate yourself and give proper recognition to where those things are coming from.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think we talked about just proving that you do your homework, man, that stands out. I'm sorry, but the artist who goes to museums, goes to galleries on a regular basis, studies art, is just fascinated and endowed completely into art outside of their studio practice. Not just in the studio practice, but outside it shows. Not just in the studio practice, but outside it shows. I mean, if I'm a curator and you put an uninformed artist next to an informed artist and I have to choose which artist to do a solo exhibition with in my gallery or in my museum and I go and meet with this artist and do a studio visit and talk about art and influence, the artists too can prove their homework. That can talk through these things. That can.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying educated right, I'm not saying school like MFA, undergrad. You can self-educate and learn today as much as you can in an undergrad and MFA program. You just have to take the time to do it. So if I'm a curator and I'm in a space with the person and they're informed about their work and why they do it, how they do it, who they study, what artists have influenced, what they're doing, where they've come to and the other artist who takes five minutes to just explain their work. I'm sorry, I'm going with the informed artist. I mean, and there's more to just being a studio artist if you want to be in the gallery world. There's more than just creating, there's also learning, there's also showing up as well. Trust me, it goes far.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's something too, I think, where you have the ability to just get yourself in more conversations, right when you're contributing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Just get yourself in more conversations, right when you're contributing.
Speaker 1:But also where you're absorbing and learning and it opens up a dialogue. I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing an example or two because I know you have with me and other conversations, but where you've had a chance to open up some of those dialogues when you're at a museum, when you're at a gallery and just where that's opened the door to have a new conversation and build a new relationship.
Speaker 2:Well, my, my first solo exhibition in Charlotte, north Carolina. My mentor came out to the show. Mako Fujimura, a Japanese, american abstract artist brilliant, definitely, look him up, possibly read a few of his books as well, if you want to read came to the show. But we gave a lecture, a public lecture, one day, with a big curator from the North Carolina area who has been a curator at major museums contemporary museums brilliant woman, and you know. We walked the gallery together and she asked tons of questions about my art, tons Archival questions. Right, every major curator from a museum is going to ask Archival questions. Right, every major curate from a museum is going to ask you archival questions.
Speaker 2:And why is your work archival?
Speaker 2:Why is it not? What are you using? Is that archival? Like things like that? Right, but also, I see some influence here. Yes, this influence is coming from here, and she was doing it right, she was not leading me. She was like prove yourself. Those moments are going to happen in art. You're going to have people that are going to just talk with you and you have others who are going to come in and say prove yourself. And so be prepared.
Speaker 2:And luckily, I was prepared, and so we were able to talk about these influences and how I've changed them and how they've adapted in my work. Why am I sewing? Why am I not using these things? What are the reasons for that? Not just story, but I'm bringing art history, but we gave a lecture the next day to the community to talk about these things. It made that lecture a lot easier.
Speaker 2:Here I am with my mentor on the panel right, who is a very educated artist who speaks all over the world about art and his work and how he creates and why he creates, and then this curator on the panel as well, and I was included in that conversation. I could actually answer and talk and I could hold my own in conversation. And it's not because I'm some genius, it's because I study. I actually spend time in my studio studying work, going to museums, going to galleries, asking questions, talking to artists on Instagram or on Zoom or whatever, and just surrounding myself with art any minute I have. And I'm a nerd. I'm an art nerd, a hundred percent. But it helps. It does help in those situations, career wise.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's that's a great case to be made for. So you talk about your mentor. That's a great case to be made for just proactively seeking out influences and getting yourself around people who know more than you, right, Like I've been very open with you about part of my motivation for doing this with you is.
Speaker 1:it's going to motivate me, you know, to educate myself better, to learn more, and you know you've been at this longer than I have, so I'm learning from you every, every conversation. You know that that we have right. So you know that's, I think, a product of just being willing to ask the question of hey, can?
Speaker 1:think a product of just being willing to ask the question of hey, can we whatever dot dot dot, interact more? Can I throw questions your way? I mean, I think that that's part of the response. I don't want to say responsibility, that might be a little bit too strong, but of an artist or ever creative is to to, to be aware that I keep using that. I keep coming back to that idea of having your radar up.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But to look for other, you know, mentors, peers, I mean whatever you want to call it but just people in your life who are going to to push you forward, who are going to motivate you, who are going to inspire you to, you know, raise the bar and keep. You know, moving things forward right and adding to the conversation, as opposed to just, you know, pulling from it.
Speaker 2:I'm still growing. I mean I'm. I haven't made it, made it right, I'm trying, like that's my goal, you know. Whatever that looks like, I just want to be able to support myself and continue to grow and make art, and so I don't have all the answers, I'm still learning. You know all these things and I think and there's another quote I was looking for here that I had that really kind of goes oh yeah, don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If they're any good, you'll have to ram them down their throats.
Speaker 2:Anyways, howard Aiken who said that, howard Aiken, don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If they're any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats anyways, howard Akin, and the reason I'm saying that is because the reason I started my mentorship program. I believe apprenticeship, mentorship, the willing to give advice and help is a lost art today and, I think, especially in the art world. It's something that used to exist for centuries the apprentice, the master, the teacher, the student. And there's so much fear in the art world that artists are afraid to share ideas. Artists are afraid to say where their ideas come from. Artists are afraid to open up to the 15-year-old kid that loves your work and send you an Instagram message how did you do this? What materials did you use? Why do you do it? And they don't answer.
Speaker 2:You know, I've kind of myself, I've kind of made a personal statement of I'm not going to be that person. I'm going to be the person that answers the questions, that shares ideas, that's willing and that's open to teach and help others learn, because the art world is scary and everybody doesn't know where it's going and how it works and it's constantly changing and adapting and there's new rules, unwritten rules, and there's new things to do that happen all the time. Do something wrong, you do something right. You don't know, it changes overnight, Like I guess I just made up a poem, an art poem, um, but it's like, who gives a shit if people steal your ideas, if your ideas are?
Speaker 2:good they're going to be stolen number one yeah if your ideas are good, somebody's going to steal them, so that should be a confidence builder. Wow, I must have done something, because a ton of people are starting to do this. But how do you really know people are going to steal your ideas and how do you really know if it's good in the first place?
Speaker 1:Well to me that I'm sorry. Keep going.
Speaker 2:I cut you off.
Speaker 1:No, go for it, go. I just I got so excited. To me that comes down to you know. Are you thinking about things through the lens of abundance versus scarcity, right?
Speaker 2:Like in other, words.
Speaker 1:You know if, if, if you're worried about somebody copying your, you know, whatever you got going on, you're probably in a static mode right Of like this is kind of my thing and it's and that's fine. I mean there's, there's not the same thing. You know against that approach to, uh, to art making. But I think that, just more broadly, you know thinking about if you approach your art and I would argue you know life as well um, from an abundance mentality versus a scarcity mentality. It's a completely different paradigm in terms of how you think about things. Right, like, you know, I always come back to some of the, you know, recovery principles. You know that I've had to understand very well from a 12-step standpoint. But you know, one of the sayings in AA is you can't keep it unless you give it away. Right, like, in other words, you know you sharing that. You know with that, you know 15-year-old kid, like that energizes you. I mean even just you explaining that.
Speaker 1:You know I've had that even as as young as I am in this whole process. You know even that experience that I've had of, you know, because I like to experiment with a lot of different, you know materials and processes I get DMs about oh, how does this behave and what is? Even just having to explain that and answer those questions it deepens my own understanding, you know. It forces, it, forces you, it forces me to think about like, oh, what is, how am I doing that? Or what is you know? So it's a, it's a, it's a reciprocating, you know sort of sort of cycle, complete ownership of any it's. It is just that sort of broad, you know collection of things that you've absorbed, you know, over time.
Speaker 1:I think about, um, you know, uh, again back to just diversifying influences. You know from all my time in the business world you know there's a lot of different. You know writers and books that had I been on the artistic you know, full-time artist path, you know from the beginning I never would have been exposed to but one of those guys. Uh, uh, authors. You know Tony Robbins, but one of my favorite Tony Robbins quotes is success leaves clues. Success leaves clues. In other words, all right, this worked for somebody. Yeah, presumably at a high level, if you're aware of it.
Speaker 1:So what are the clues? What are the common denominators and how can you connect some of those seemingly disparate concepts you know in a novel and unique way? The only way you're going to be able to connect those dots is if you're freaking, paying attention to what is working for other people, not just in the space that you're trying to be successful in, but broadly right, just paint Interesting, what about that works for that person? What about this thing over here? Could I apply to this thing that I'm doing over here? Because I think the more random or the more out there that connection, know that that connection might be, the more novel it's going to appear when you, when you bring it to a different space, you know, you think about food, for example, right, like I don't know when exactly the whole I think you're more of a foodie than I am, but when the whole, you know, trend of of fusion came out, right, I don't know when that was, but maybe it's been around for a long time, it, but maybe it's been around for a long time. It probably hasn't before it was even called that, right.
Speaker 1:But when we're combining, you know these, these different um, you know ethnic cuisines and and seasonings and things like that, oh my gosh, when you combine A and B now, you get something that's completely unique but that comes from absorbing, consuming a lot of different influences and paying attention to what about this works over there and what might I be able to apply over here.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and you know to piggyback on your Robbins quote of success leaves clues. I'll also add that failure proves you're trying, and I love we were discussing this mentorship group this last Saturday. Sylvia Plath had a quote that said all of my rejection letters proved to me, in trying, you know, and it's like you know, taking that a step further is like if you're successful in becoming you through all your copy and your theft of things, like there will be clues of why you're being successful. Right, all those things, but then also you still, in order to get there, you got to put yourself out there. You know what I mean, and in the art world there's a lot more failure than success. So, thinking about Sylvia Plath, talking about her recognizing that she's trying by her rejection letters, right, so for her books, for her poetry and putting them out there to publishers and constantly getting rejected, right To her. That proves I'm doing something, I'm trying.
Speaker 2:You know, when we talk about success, leaving those clues, you know that failure I mean you have to put it out there. You have to try to fail first. Right, to find some success, especially in you know pretty much any of the arts. You're going to get a lot more no's than yes's most of the time, but a lot of artists don't even put stuff out there in a manner that they're going to get rejected or find success. You know, and that's you know.
Speaker 2:We got to spend all that time finding us and everything else out there that we love and constantly putting those pieces together to form the work that we are confident enough in it being our work and not just copy of so much other work. Right, and then we put it out there and see. You know how the audience, how the art world, takes, and sometimes it might be you got more work to do and other times it might be wow, this is fantastic and this fits, and we're going to run with you. So don't let rejection spoil what you're doing in the studio and how you're pushing and learning and working. Don't let those. I experience it every month. I feel like like rejection for some level in the art world and it'd be very easy for me to get down on myself and not continue to study and not continue to copy and practice and grow in my work.
Speaker 1:You know, that brings up a whole nother element of this which is worth talking about. I didn't think about it till just now. But just, you know, not just fear forgive me not just rejection, but fear of rejection or, in the context of this conversation, fear of being called out for, you know, being too derivative, or whatever term you might want to use, of copying or, or, you know, stealing. You know, in the uh, in the negative sense, right Like that's a thing.
Speaker 1:Sure, it's certainly something that that I've experienced, you know a lot, especially when I'm, I'm, and and that's certainly something that I've experienced a lot, especially when I'm intentionally exploring something that I've gotten picked up from another source. There is that fear of like. Oh well, and I think to your point earlier. I'll ask you too if there's anything you would add to this. But you said something to the effect of just making sure that we're citing our sources, that we're being open about. Yep, I'm influenced by this and and not trying to hide from it, but actually owning it and celebrating that. You know, did I understand that correctly from what you mentioned before, or in part one, probably?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. You know, talking about like those things. I finished my first novel during the pandemic and it took me 13 years to write because I would stop and then I'd work on it again and I'd stop, I'd work on it again over the years and my goal is art. So I'd definitely be interrupted with a lot of art making and then sitting down to write. There's tons of ideas within my novel that I've taken from other artists, my favorite writers, David Eggers, Nick Hornby, the poet, Mary Oliver, and then my favorite fiction writers, and from my favorite filmmakers, from Wes Anderson and from stories that I love Charlie Kaufman, screenwriters and things.
Speaker 2:And William Burroughs says all writing is facts. Just cut up, it's a collage of words that you've read or that are overheard and so it's like. But when I wrote my query letter for publishers, I also have to put in this letter what is this book like? What are the similarities? I cite my sources. I'm not going to hide from. I wanted to start writing books after I read High Fidelity by Nick Hornby. I want to write because of, and I'm taking all these ideas and facts and things I've gathered and the way other guys have written and the way that other gals have written and I combine it into how I wrote. Same thing with art, but it was for me. It was just another new learning experience of that copy, that theft, that how to be great at something you do by taking the wealth of information that others have done before you and then finding your voice within that, Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a perfect segue into the uh. One of the last quotes that I wanted to share and this is one of my favorites that I just came across yesterday because I went down the rabbit hole because I was preparing for this conversation. So this is a quote by Paul Rand, the legendary designer, uh, who said the artist is a collector of things, imaginary or real. He accumulates things with the same enthusiasm that a little boy stuffs his pockets. The scrap heap and the museum are embraced with equal curiosity. He takes snapshots, makes notes and records impressions on tablecloths or newspapers, on backs of envelopes or matchbooks. Why one thing and not another is part of the mystery, but he is omnivorous. And uh.
Speaker 1:There's a couple of things from that, based on what you just said, and and and uh, that I want to add as well. But to your point, like you may or may not ever be a, it may or may not be your goal, I don't know to to be a, you know published, you know author, or to to take, I don't know how far you want to take that, but I do know about you, that you know you've been involved in film that you, you know, produced an award award-winning documentary that you're involved in in writing and um, and I think that there's so much to be said for for just trying different things, even if it's not going to be your thing, right, like sure. I think about just the completely random interest in things, that that or you can connect the dots, you know. I think about how you know my passion for you know, photography and videography, how that lends to my understanding of composition and understanding my exploration and my attempt at understanding composition and lighting, you know, and things along those lines. But one hand always washes the other right, like it's impossible to sort of, you know, separate out. Oh, this is just, you know, writing, this is just writing tie. This is just filmmaking tie, this is just artist tie, or even broadly, even beyond, you know, in things that may or may not, on the surface, have anything to do with anything else.
Speaker 1:You know we're, we're collecting, we're stuffing our pockets. You know whether it comes from the scrap heap or the museum, you know it doesn't even matter. And the thing I love about that is the very last word omnivorous. In other words, I can take, I can take meat, I can take fruit, I can take vegetables, I can take any food, anything edible, and I can convert that into fuel. Yeah Right, yep. As opposed to if you're limited to just one specific food source, survival becomes a lot more difficult.
Speaker 1:So I love that idea of just being an omnivorous consumer, just being an omnivorous consumer, and the part of this as we kind of begin to wrap up and think about what we can do with this or what might be. The tactical application to me is taking snapshots, making notes, recording impressions, capturing those things as they come along, so that it's in the well right. So there's a subconscious absorbing of just things that sort of wash over us and influence us without our necessarily seeking it out or thinking in those terms. But to me, this quote here is a reminder that it's also incumbent upon us as creators, as artists, to be intentional about capturing those things, about writing those things down, about taking those pictures and I've got random folders and notes and things like I mean it ain't organized.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it if it was, but they're there.
Speaker 1:you know and and I'm sure you've had, actually I know you have the experience of looking back at journals and and capturing little things that were influencing you. You know years, I mean, I know you know a current work is based on, you know poetry, that you wrote what 20 years plus ago, 25 years ago, right, so anyway. So I just I think it's important for us to be aware of yep, we're going to absorb some things just naturally by consuming them, but we also need to be aware that there's a lot of value in proactively capturing those things and writing those things down. Yep, your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's my life, that's what I do. So it's like. I mean I have amassed books, photographs, pictures, folders on my desktop, folders in my desk drawer, journals, notebooks. I should probably invest in sticky notes because I've got thousands of these all over the place and all my books are just lined with arrows and notes and note cards within books.
Speaker 2:And my favorite thing about going to art museums is going to the art museum library if they have it. Some art museums have massive libraries of books and I go through the museum and then I go into the library and I grab, and then I go into the library and I grab and I make a stack on the table and I have my phone out and I'm just taking snapshots of everything that speaks to me. Right, this collection of ideas. And we should be mental hoarders as artists and I truly, truly believe that, because that influences our work and informs how we talk and think and create and all these things, and I mean that's all I do every day. I mean I'm blessed to be able to do that and it's taken me a long time to get to this point, to be able to hoard regularly ideas and art and consume these things in such a way that helps me create out of the chaos, which I have a quote I want to read about Lewis Hyde, one of my favorite books, the Gift. I suggest every artist reads the Gift and it talks about really kind of the history of art coming from a gift, like a tradable gift that was used in ancient history to kind of commissioned work right Michelangelo, and being hired as a trade things, and then to art as a commodity and how to balance that art is truly still a gift but yet it also is a commodity and how do you balance that between the two. So I suggest everybody go out and buy that book. So this quote says Most artists are brought to their vocation when their own nascent gifts are awakened by the work of a master, an influence. That is to say, most artists are converted to art by art itself.
Speaker 2:Now, finding one's voice isn't just an emptying and purifying oneself of the words of others, but an adopting and embracing of affiliations, communities and discourses. Embracing affiliations, communities and discourses Inspiration could be called inhaling the memory of an act never experienced. Invention, it must be humbly admitted, does not consist in creating out of the void but out of chaos. So what he's saying at the end there, invention, the originality, the newness, the, your voice, that is your work and does no longer look just like other pieces of work. It looks like your work. It does not consist in creating out of the void, the just yourself, the just this, the just this. It comes out of the chaos, the hoarding, the collecting, the ravaging of thoughts and ideas from so many other things and other cultures and other. All of that is where invention comes from, Not out of the void of just trying to do it alone and by yourself.
Speaker 1:That's pretty deep Very deep.
Speaker 2:There's a lot there, a lot there Very deep.
Speaker 1:That could be a whole. We could have a number of spinoff episodes of just this topic alone. I suspect that we'll probably end up coming back to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and at some point as well I was trying to find that actually made me think of another quote that I wanted to find specifically there's a Scott Adams who's responsible for most notably Dilbert you know, the I don't know how long that that um cartoon has been going, but I remember him.
Speaker 1:I think it was on the Tim Ferriss podcast. But he talks about how he's not the best. I'm paraphrasing based on my memory. But I'm not the best artist. They're way better, you know, artists than me or people. People draw much better cartoonists. I'm not the funniest there's. There's people who are way, way, you know, way better at comedy and much funnier. But the combination, but I'm, I'm okay, I'm pretty good as an artist and I'm I'm pretty funny, and so it's the combination of those things right. So it's kind of that Venn diagram of influences and life experiences too, where I mean, like I've kicked myself, I spent some time, you know, in in all the you know 20 plus years that I spent, you know, really in the business world and not really doing much of anything with art, you know, and I did for a period of time have some regret, like man.
Speaker 1:I, you know where, where, where could I be, you know, had I just taken the more you know traditional route to, to, to, to get to here, um, you know, and and I didn't spend too much time there because I quickly realized it all, it all leads to this, right, all, the, the, the, the, the Venn dot. It's not just two circles, right, it's, it's a number of different. You know things and experiences and influences, right, like you know, I use a lot of. You know construction techniques and materials. You know, in in my work, I'm a shitty. You know a trades person, right, like, ain't nobody hiring me to do anything, but you know, maybe haul haul some heavy stuff around and even that is that that windows probably passes.
Speaker 1:I hate here, but you know, but I know enough about, like, kind of how to, how to use different materials and how to use different. You know different techniques. I mean, that's just one example of many, but you know, to your example of your, your experience and your knowledge base as a writer, you know your experience and knowledge base. You know that you spent in marketing and advertising and those types of things. Right, like it all. It all leads to wherever you're at today and how you're going to filter that's a great, another great way of that. I like to think about it how you're going to sort of you know process the influences that you've received, you know, in a new and novel, you know way. The last quote that I wanted to share, unless something else comes to me, which is possible, but this is from, uh uh, one of my favorite books, catching the big fish, by david lynch who started out as a painter, right, right, an artist and then worked and then decided whoa, I think film is where I can really tell my story and he still creates.
Speaker 2:Right, he still paints. There's a great documentary that's out about his life as an artist as well and a painter. But, as we were saying earlier, try lots of things and find where your art works, where your voice really can be used. Right with your art. And so I love David Lynch. I'm a Lynchian and that aesthetic is yeah, his sensibilities are.
Speaker 1:I'm going to take credit for recommending that book to you. Yeah, absolutely. I'm surprised you hadn't already, but I highly recommend, right? I mean, I think it's just the way he communicates. The audio version is fantastic as well, because he reads it himself and he's just so matter of fact about the way that he breaks down really complex and sophisticated ideas. So this is a quote from that book.
Speaker 1:This idea comes to you, you can see it, but to accomplish it you need what I call a setup. For example, you may need a working shop or a working painting studio, you may need a working music studio or a computer room where you can write something. It's crucial to have a setup so that at any given moment when you get an idea, you have the place and the tools to make it happen. If you don't have a setup, there are many times when you get the inspiration, the idea, but you have no tools, no place to put it together, and the idea just sits there and festers. Over time it will go away. You didn't fulfill it, and that's just a heartache, all right.
Speaker 1:So I'm kind of dovetailing the previous quote of being omnivorous, of capturing different things but then doing something you know with it. And I think it's important to note that it doesn't really matter what your like. You don't need a studio space, you don't need. You know, like, again, there's never been a better time to capture, you know, ideas. We all have a freaking recording studio in our pocket that is more advanced and more powerful than what you know would take up an entire you know building from decades previous. Right, like, there's never been a better time to pick up.
Speaker 1:But capturing those things, right, like, catching it. You don't need to, you don't even need to develop it, right? Just catch that fish, catch that idea, you know. Put it somewhere where it's going to. You know, have some again, whether that's your idea or something you know that you've copied or stolen from somebody else. But catch it, have it somewhere. Again. My system and I'm using air quotes here for anybody who's just listening it's I don't really have one, but I know I've got all of these, you know, and even just with modern technology, I've got, you know, I don't even know how many different folders on YouTube, for example, of different categories that I can listen back to. I've got, when I save things from Instagram, different journaling, all of those different. You capture those things and then you've got this diverse collection of back to that food metaphor. You've got all the ingredients you could ever, and you continuously are collecting more and more ingredients to make your unique dish, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and it's important, you know and this, this is a whole other episode at some point, right, just that, taking the copy, the theft beyond, and really documenting who you are, why you're doing it, what are the things you want to do, holding onto those things and using them, that they come back and use them later and work down the road, these ideas and things. Why did Basquiat mean so much to me at the time that it did? Why, when I see his work, does my soul move in such a way? You know what I mean, that other work doesn't do it. But writing about it and jotting those notes down about those things and my discovery and love, after I hated impressionism for so long, writing about why certain pieces move me the way they do.
Speaker 2:Why does Degas' ballerina pieces move me in the way they do? What is it about those things? What is it about the pastels? What is it about those things? What is it about the pastels? What is it about you know? So it's like it's not just the ideas too, but write out what you're thinking and why you're thinking about these things, cause, though, man, I'm a big senses guy.
Speaker 2:Activating all of my senses, I feel like, enhances me as a person on a regular basis. If I'm just on the computer and on my phone all the time and that's where all my senses are engaging, I feel like I'm going to die really soon mentally. That's why I still love to use pens and pencils and journals and paper and buy books and read books and not that I'm not on my computer a lot or my phone, but I try to offset that with ordering magazines and reading. You know, having my subscription to magazines and local art newsletters and touch, feel, listen, see, like I like engaging all those things because I do think it enhances everything, that's a whole other conversation for us as well. I think that would be a fun one, enacting all five senses.
Speaker 1:It totally is. But from that, I think, on today's topic of just of copying and stealing, you know that's a really interesting point that you make. That's, that's that's worth acknowledging is just the value of not just identifying and becoming aware of, of what moves you or what you like, but why do I like that? You know, and and I've heard you say before, you know, not just you know, why do I like this, but why do I not like you know certain things and really unpacking, like what is it about? You know the essence of the thing? You know, that really captures me, because when you get down to sort of the elemental nature of something, the likelihood of how you then express that um is going to be a lot more unique to your own, your own voice and really thinking about I'm just.
Speaker 1:You know you triggered another thought of like I've become obsessed lately with just trying to understand how. So I live in Minnesota. It was, you know whatever, minus four when I, when I drove, you know, to the studio this morning. But there's something that happens, um, in cold weather states that use salt, you know, for the ice on the roads where, as it evaporates, it just makes the most beautiful marks. And I posted a bunch of just like accidental artwork.
Speaker 1:I'm just like dang but just thinking about like, okay, I love that, it's gorgeous. Why do?
Speaker 1:I love that. And then what could I potentially do with that? So that led me down a whole nother rabbit hole of like I got a bunch of different little science experiments laying around of you know trying different types of table salt and kosher salt and road salt, like what is it going to take for me to maybe capture that and recreate, not necessarily the exact look, but the essence you know, and that sort of like literally elemental nature you know of that?
Speaker 2:And just to add to that, you know one of my former mentees, christine, and just to add to that, one of my former mentees, christine Anderson we talked about this a lot with her work the tar paper, the wood, the foundation, the rebar, this is what moves her. It's like these things, they're just to me. There's beauty in there. I'm like then why don't you make that? And she's like what do you mean? And I said why do you need permission to make that? If that's what you love, if that's what moves your soul, then go make art that moves your soul. And she was like, oh my gosh, so that's what she's working on. And I mean she's using those raw materials.
Speaker 2:Like, listen, mark Bradford gives you permission to use those materials. The biggest artists in the world give you permission to do these things. And I'm like man, I want to see you doing massive installations that look like unfinished homes, that have your touch and your feel and your story as to why and I can walk in it and move around Do it. And that's the whole point. Right of what we're doing here with this podcast is we're finding quotes, we're gathering all this information and ideas from people that we love or have influenced us and we're like listen, all everybody's saying is just go make some damn art.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, as we wrap up, uh, you know you may not like anything about this episode, but I am, I'm confident that never before has this collection of quotes and ideas been shared, uh, in the same, whatever uh hour, and change, so for what it's worth, you know, yeah, we uh, you know, if you want to argue with us, bring it.
Speaker 2:We'd love to argue with you or debate it. But you can also go ahead and debate with some of the most known artists, writers, filmmakers, musicians, poets in the history of humankind, if you want, as because they all say, if it's going to be a battle, we put some monoliths on the front lines ahead of us.
Speaker 1:You can argue with us, but you're really arguing with these legends of history.
Speaker 2:Find us on Instagram Ty Nathan Clark, nathan Turborg. We'd love to chat with you, send us DMs, and we're looking forward to what we're going to bring you next time as well thanks for joining us have a great one. Go, make some more. See you from not negative to weather peace.
