Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Leonardo Drew. Art as Physical Transformation. Part 1
The journey from discarded material to transcendent art forms the foundation of our conversation about Leonardo Drew, one of contemporary art's most physically committed and philosophically profound creators. Drew's remarkable journey began in the most unlikely of places—playing in a dump as a child in Tallahassee, Florida—a formative experience that would later inform his artistic sensibility and material relationship.
What strikes you immediately about Drew is the joyful contradiction between his ebullient personality and the weighted gravity of his installations. His work appears weathered, aged, and discovered rather than created, yet as we learn, this is a carefully orchestrated illusion. "I don't work with found objects," Drew reveals. "Most of my material I actually create in the studio... I become the weather." This transformation process, where new materials are methodically distressed until they appear to carry centuries of history, speaks to Drew's profound understanding of time, memory, and physical transformation.
Perhaps most compelling is Drew's pivotal turning point at age fifteen, when a black-and-white reproduction of a Jackson Pollock painting changed everything. Despite being courted by Marvel and DC Comics for his extraordinary illustrative talents, Drew abandoned this promising commercial path to pursue fine art—a decision requiring remarkable courage. "I decided it was time for me to stop using what I did well," he explains, essentially tying his hands to discover what existed beyond his comfort zone. This willingness to abandon mastery in pursuit of deeper questions characterizes his entire approach.
Drew's extraordinary work ethic—rotating between seven projects simultaneously like "crying babies" needing attention—and his seven-year disappearance into the studio to develop his voice demonstrate a commitment few artists match. His perspective on creative struggle as "the most beautiful part of the journey" reminds us that art-making thrives on questions rather than answers. Experience Drew's transformative installations in person to understand why his work commands such reverence among artists and audiences alike.
Sources:
Leonardo Drew in "Investigation" - Season 7 - "Art in the Twenty-First Century" | Art21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymMGgOCoK8k&list=PLfV5vsCYQApkupBnzNY3YxKpFJeNb7HqR&index=5
An Interview with Leonardo Drew | Wadsworth Antheneum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-75fm_UzhYg&list=PLfV5vsCYQApkupBnzNY3YxKpFJeNb7HqR&index=4
Woodcuts: Leonardo Drew | useum of Arts and Design (MAD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3S2nvDcvU&list=PLfV5vsCYQApkupBnzNY3YxKpFJeNb7HqR&index=3
Artist Talk: Leonardo Drew | Amon Carter Museum of American Art Fort Worth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtsqaHfEYxc&list=PLfV5vsCYQApkupBnzNY3YxKpFJeNb7HqR
Carrie Scott, SEEN Podcast | Leonardo Drew
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1a54U1cidMrWratJewuyFy?si=27cd5abd710f4439
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Tanya Cushman Reviewer. Reviewer. Tanya Cushman Reviewer. It's just coming. That's why I said if I get up in the morning, I know I have to work. I don't necessarily have to say I'm going to make work about this or that. It's just going to happen, it's just going to work. All that other stuff is just going to come into play. I have a call on it. It's just going to happen. It's like it's just going to work. It's all that other stuff is going to come into play. You don't have to call on it, it's just there. It's life.
Speaker 1:You know I wake up in the morning, I know exactly what I'm going to do. I don't go through slumps. I mean, the work is sort of like you know it's self-perpetuating, so it lives on itself. So it's like I get up. You know, what I investigated yesterday has led to some new realization and I'm onto that. It's not like you know I have all these answers and it's like the work is like without a struggle. I mean, actually struggle is, you know, like the fact that you don't have the answers is actually the most beautiful part of the journey.
Speaker 3:That was meaty. There was a lot of really good food in there, that's a full meal with leftovers tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, lots of leftovers tomorrow, I think.
Speaker 3:I've heard that before somewhere.
Speaker 2:Absolutely the kind that you're excited to reheat and bring to work tomorrow. The kind that actually some leftovers, the flavors, get to know each other overnight. It's better the next day. It's that. Yeah, this tastes a whole lot better today than it did yesterday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's that type of meal.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Welcome to Talking Food with Nathan and Ty, where we talk about leftovers primarily.
Speaker 2:Let's start that Today we're going to talk about one of both of our absolute art heroes, leonardo Drew. Cannot wait to get into this. But let's do a quick little update, since it's been a minute, since we've recorded a new episode, which, by the way, we'll go to you first, ty. But, by the way, I just want to say thanks to everybody for hanging with us. We try to stay on our regular every other week schedule, but we are both working artists and the art always comes first. Know if we miss a week here and there. Thanks for hanging with us and uh and coming on back. But, ty, what have you been up to?
Speaker 3:I know you just got back from a really exciting trip yeah, I just got back from the marfa invitational in marfa, texas. I was there for 11 days I think, so it was a just an incredible, not just event but connection of artists and art lovers and people in just a magical place. Marfa, texas, is to me very, very magical and, man, I got to connect with some of my closest friends that you and I both know Eric Breesh and Vino, two of my closest friends we spent a lot of time together hanging out and V's's new person, samuel Levi-Jones, who's a brilliant artist out of Indianapolis. So I got to spend a lot of time with the three of them talking art, talking life, getting deep. We did the Chinati Foundation tour together, so we got to walk through Donald Judd and Dan Flavin and John Chamberlain's museums together and that was, you know, when you're doing that with other artists, it's just the best, and whether our tour guide loved that or not, she was sweet, but she had to really, really know her stuff, with the four of us constantly asking questions or knowing answers that maybe she didn't know and, as artists, also speaking into things too.
Speaker 3:So it was, it was incredible and I got to meet so many artists across the state of Texas because this exhibition was just Texas artists. I think we had 160 artists in there and maybe five, 600 works of art in the room, and so fun to connect with artists that I've followed maybe for a long time and have never met in person, or that have followed me for a long time on Instagram, haven't met in person, and then new artists. Just that was, for me, one of the things I love more than anything about art and being at shows is getting to meet artists. So lots of conversations, lots of new, fresh conversations, but a lot of very moving moments discussing work and things that are going on in the art world. So it was fabulous and just got back two days ago and we had a lot of time. We talked a lot about our current. This episode Leonardo drew as well, because for Eric and I and for Samuel it's a. He's one of our favorite artists too, so it's fun leading up.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I love it and you're just a little life update. You are getting close to moving into the new studio Not quite yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I probably could have set up in there today, but it would have been really echoey because it's completely empty. So I figured I'll stay in the garage for another day and you guys can have the treadmill and all my folded up stuff in the background on video. But yeah, I'll probably start moving things in from the garage into the studio when we're off this recording.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I can't wait. We've been trying to get into this. I was looking back at our uh, at our outline here, and we have been working on this and listening to tons of different art talks. Uh, he's a phenomenal listen. I mean we're going to play a bunch of quotes, so I don't really need to say that, because that'll be evident if it's not already, as we play a bunch more of these. But just the way that he talks about work and just the absolute joy that emanates from every word that he says. It's super, super fun. But we would definitely encourage you to go and check out. We'll cite our sources in the show notes as well, but we've got four or five different talks and sources that we're going to be pulling from. But, Todd, why don't you go ahead and cue us up with a little bit of a brief bio on Mr Drew before we dive in?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I don't want to give too much away because we're going to be diving into some of his biography throughout some of these quotes too. But an incredible artist in many, many forms, with a pretty rare story too, I would say, behind his art making and how he got to where he is and where he started out and where he's ended up today. And he is between, today, san Antonio, texas, and New York, and so he's going back and forth. I know he's doing a lot in San Antonio, but he's in New York a lot and he travels around the and forth. I know he's doing a lot in San Antonio, but he's in New York a lot and he travels around the globe. We'll talk about that pretty regularly too.
Speaker 3:But he was born in 1961 in Tallahassee, florida, and he grew up in a home near a landfill and then I don't know when he moved to Connecticut, but at some point in there he was born in Florida, moved to Connecticut and he's known for large scale installations and mixed media works that explore a lot of themes wrapped up within it, and I'm actually not going to talk about the themes because I don't think he would want me to, so I'm not going to talk about what people have guessed.
Speaker 3:These themes are even what he's talked about, because we'll get into why. I'm not going to do that for you. I want you to discover those things yourself when you look at his work. But his art does have some personal narrative and environment and memories of environments wrapped up within it as well, and if you've ever stood in front of one of his works, which I've been blessed to see a few mind-blowing, honestly, absolutely shockinglyingly mind blowing to me and he's somebody that I refer to any artist that's been in my mentorship program who's a sculptor or an installation artist he's usually right at the top of that list. When I send them research, I'm like dive in to. Leonardo drew immensely Anything and everything you can get your hands on, listen to it, read it, buy it, go see it, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, when you see his pieces in person, it just dominates the room that it occupies, that they occupy, and it's just, it's something where I it almost makes whatever else might be in that space really hard to appreciate, because it is so, so overwhelmingly all consuming. It's, it's, it's really really quite something. So if you've not had a chance to see his work in person, photos don't do it justice, as is the case with most, you know, three-dimensional work. But let's go ahead and throw in another quote that kind of dovetails off the one that we opened up with, just talking about his insane work ethic.
Speaker 1:Yes, something like that 16, 16, 17, 18. There used to be 20 hour days but I stopped that. Like in the studio, what usually happens is I'm rotating seven things and they kind of balance one another and I find that like they assist one another in completing themselves. So it's never just one thing. I'll work on something and I'll take it to near completion, and if it's not working out, I'll take it apart and I'll make something else with it.
Speaker 2:All right. So there's a lot there to dive into, but I want to. I want to begin by again, kind of circling back to that opening quote that we shared, just scrumming.
Speaker 1:That's why I Begin by again kind of circling back to that opening quote that we shared Just coming. That's why I said if I get up in the morning, I know I have to work. I don't necessarily have to say I'm going to make work about this or that. You know, it's like it's just going to happen. It's like it's just going to work. It's just all that other stuff is going to come into play. You don't have to call on. I mean, work is sort of like, you know, it's self-perpetuating and sort of lives on itself. So it's like I get up, you know, what I investigated yesterday has led to some new realization and I'm onto that. It's not like, you know, I have all these answers and it's like the work is like without a struggle. I mean, actually struggle is, you know, like the fact that you don't have the answers is actually the most um, the beautiful most beautiful part of the journey, just his, his work ethic.
Speaker 2:You know when you watch the videos and, and, again, definitely encourage y'all to to go. And the art 21 is, uh is fantastic. That's a great place to start. But when you see his studio, his process, like he is working, he is dressed for manual labor. You know what I mean. So boots back, brace gloves, you know. You see uh all types of different. You know construction tools, uh in his in, uh in his space, and it's, it's absolutely just inspiring to see the way that he clocks in and we've talked about this a lot in previous episodes as well. But just the work ethic for him. I don't need to wonder what I'm going to do. I know I'm going to go to work and the work continues to perpetuate, more and more work.
Speaker 3:Well, because of that he says in that first quote I don't go through slumps, Right, you know what I mean. He's just like I'm constantly working and so I'm always discovering. Because I'm constantly working and he, you know, at the end of that quote, he's investigating yesterday has led to something new and now he's onto that. So now he's moving to the next thing and I have all these answers and the work is without struggle. He says struggle is the fact you don't have the answers. That's the most beautiful part of the journey and we talk about this all the time. Right, it's like that's if you're constantly working, you're constantly having questions, and every time you kind of get to an answer, it's providing a new question and that's kind of his search and his process. And I do think it's funny when he says where is it in the quote? In the studio he says where is it? I'm rotating seven things and they balance on one another, and he has this philosophy of the seven crying babies. I don't know if you came across that.
Speaker 2:I think that might have been in the Kerry Scott podcast and he talks about how he says that in almost every interview I don't think we have Pretty much every interview.
Speaker 3:So it's like if one baby's crying and you quiet it, there's still another six babies crying, and then, once you go to adjust the other baby, then that one starts crying. And so it's this repeated circle of there's always something to be moving. And if you watch the videos and things, there are times when he'll tell the person interviewing if you're here long enough, you're going to start moving things, Because while we're in the studio, I'm seeing this and that's got to move and this needs to move. And that just shows us how in it he is. He's so in it that even when he's in the interview, he's going oh, I need to move those three things. So as soon as we do a cut here, you're going to come help me move these Right, you know.
Speaker 3:And the absolute physicality, though, of his work, as you said too, you know he's had hand surgeries on both hands. He's about to have double knee surgery. He is somebody who is physically and mentally and emotionally so grounded in the work he's making that it is breaking him down in ways too, because he's so in it he's not stopping, he has to do it. We'll hear about that later, but how do you relate to that?
Speaker 2:Well, how much time do you have? I mean one of the things about that opening clip from I think that was from the mad museum of art and design.
Speaker 2:That's about a five minute video. It's fantastic. One of the things that jumped off the screen to me when I was watching that was it's a very brief cut, but it's his punch list for the day, right, yeah, and so a punch list is, I think, that term. I'm pretty sure that term comes from construction. It definitely does, cause, from my experience, you know, working in the trades and working, you know, under underneath a proper, proper trades people and contractors but a punch list is like the last list of things that need to be done before the project is finished. Right, so, as your project going on at your place right now, they've got a punch list and sometimes they think it's done, and sometimes, in your case, the homeowner would say, actually there's a few more things we need to add to that.
Speaker 2:But I just love that. I mean, that's a very you know, just such a work driven approach to these are the things that need to be done and what's the next thing on the list. And so I just got the biggest smile on my face, because that's how I relate to that. Right, like every day, I've got probably I don't know four or five different legal pads in addition to my journals where I'm writing about the work. But I've got these legal pads and a lot of three by five note cards all over the place of different punch lists for the day, because that's what I speak for for him, but that's what keeps me, keeps me on track, knowing that, hey, when I'm cause that's an interesting thing about those long 14, 16, 20 hour days Like I think it'd be very difficult, very rare is the artist who can work that long period.
Speaker 2:But especially, I think it's the type of work that he does certainly lends itself to longer days. A hundred percent I can relate to this because so much of it is just very task driven. It's like I'm going to be dissecting this piece in his case, weathering, which we'll talk about in a little bit. I'm going to be assembling all of these. You know little pieces. So before you know it, you know three, four or five hours have gone by just doing very manual. You know labor intensive work. That's that's really what stuck out to me the most, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we're all different. I mean, this is the thing, like, just because Leonardo drew, does, that doesn't mean that you or myself or any other artists listening is going, oh man, I don't put in enough work, nothing's going to happen for me, I can't put in six, right? It's like it's all different for everybody and there's plenty of artists, including myself. I work a lot, but there are times where I go into the studio and I work an hour. Or I go into the studio and I just read a little bit. I go into the studio one day and I could work for six or eight hours, I could work for 10 or 15 hours. Then there's periods of time where I'm working minimally but I'm doing something, and so, and it's, you know. But I also have a family, you know as well. So there's that balance to a balancing, you know, life outside the studio with life inside the studio. And for Leonardo, you know, it's just him, he's solo, so he's really putting as much time as he can to do those things.
Speaker 3:And there's a quote that I love by Van Gogh that says great things are done by a series of small things brought together. Right, and in essence, that's everything you just said and that's everything that Leonardo just said. All these small things, the punch list, the journals, the notes, all that and that time, all of those little things, like great things are done. Great art is made in the end by all those things coming together and having an intersection is made in the end by all those things coming together and having an intersection, thinking of all those small things being brought together to really create something great in the end. Really, for Leonardo started at a young age, in his early years, to growing up around a dump and seeing so many different little things all over as a child. I think we have a really good clip of him talking about that we do. Here it is.
Speaker 1:And the dump was my playground. So we I played out there, you know, like all of us did. I mean I had a different you know. Take on what the dump was. I mean I was grabbing things there and trying to make things. Others were there, you know, like I said, playing around the cesspool and falling into it. You know. So you know, yeah, into it. You know. So you know, yeah, you know my beginnings in terms of how I probably see even found objects and what they mean to me and how I'm trying to echo that in my works had its beginnings there.
Speaker 3:I love the fact that early memories because, you know, memory plays such a big part in my work and everything that I do.
Speaker 3:But I love when I get to hear those stories from my favorite artists and how their memories impact their work later on, you know. And so just seeing those discarded items and those, that fascination with materials and random things right, that are not art supplies, you know, it's something, you something. They're not art supplies, they're random things how that really really did infect and get inside him to create this visceral response later on to adapt his art making to reflect some of those things. It's wonderful.
Speaker 2:When I listened to him tell that story it really triggered a visceral memory for me that I hadn't previously connected to my practice today. But when I was a kid I spent I've talked about this quite a, I think, before, but would wander around in the woods and just explore and journal, write, sketch, take photos, just just be out in my own little world. There's a bunch of city land behind where I lived and it was just my playground. But there was a dump that was adjacent to the city land and sometimes I would wander through there and it was a playground. It was absolutely. I remember just being whatever. I was seven. A playground it was. It was absolutely. I remember just being whatever.
Speaker 2:I was seven, eight, nine years old and I would drag a bunch of just cool looking objects that I thought were interesting back to the house and my dad was very forgiving but he said this is your space to keep your pile of things and you have to. You can't, it can't grow. You have to decide if you're going to do something with it. We can't just be, you know, collecting, collecting garbage in the in in in the garage. I remember once I found this, this just perfect piece of really really soft aluminum piping that I then pounded into, like whatever, some kind of a samurai sword, right? So then that or what I, what I thought looked like a samurai sword, and I would, you know, take that back into the woods with me for protection, obviously.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, it's just, it's, it's super interesting. And so I think about those moments of just like that oh wow, look at this, what could I do? What could this be? What could I do with this? You know and I don't know, I just had never really really occurred to me how much that relates to all of the dumpster diving and the walks that I take with Leo, my dog, just finding, finding things. Now, but that's what I'm chasing, you know is that that moment that I felt as a child of just like this is incredible. Look at this, look at this one of a kind gem that was just laying out here, discarded, disposed of. No one cares about it, but I will. It's amazing.
Speaker 3:I think that's a really good segue into something here with Leonardo, because there was something that he saw at this point as a young boy that he saw something that literally just changed everything for him, like slapped him in the face in such a way that he just changed everything for him, like slapped him in the face in such a way that he just had to switch. He had to, like change directions. And this is young, you know. This is what. 16? Was it? Or was it like 14? It might've been around 14 or 15 years old, I can't remember exactly the age, but it's in that young teenage years, and he was a brilliant illustrator and comic book designer, like himself drawing comic books and illustrator like incredible, to the point where at 13 or 14 years old he got famous for it.
Speaker 3:He did a Captain America drawing that ended up in a show that got the attention of Marvel, dc, heavy Metal Magazine and I know he loves to tell the story of Marvel and DC were battling out to sign him, to bring him on, and at the time it was when the first Christopher Reeve Superman film came out and Marvel wasn't doing films or anything, they were just page comic books and DC was. Well, we're making movies, so you should definitely come with us. You know what I mean. And that was one of those things he was really considering, because that was his dream at that point in time. I want to be a comic book artist, I want to draw, and there's some success when he, as a child, was struggling in the projects and it's like all of a sudden there just could be this success. And then I'll let Drew talk about what happened to him at this point in his life.
Speaker 1:I was drawing and using colored inks and things like that. People in the neighborhood the projects where I grew up in Bridgeport, connecticut they were telling me about this place called ABCD Cultural Arts Center. They said that, well, you have to go there because they have paints and canvases. And I said, wow, this is all the stuff for free. Well, you have to go there because they have paints and canvases. And I said, wow, this is all for free. So once I made my way over to them, I ended up with these mentors, a fantastic group of artists who were just there helping kids, and I was one of them.
Speaker 1:My goodness, just copying cartoons here, just copied directly from television, like whatever I was watching. I had the facility to be able to do that at a young age, but at the same time it wasn't original thought, real fun. This is actually from the newspaper article when I from my first exhibition at age 13. And we used it as a flyer. Of course, these are much later. I was approached by DC Comics and Heavy Metal Magazine and Marvel Comics to do work for them. When I saw this black and white reproduction of Jackson Pollock's work when I was in the library in high school, that was it, and that was my first take on what fine art was Imagine Jackson Pollock in black and white. But it still, you know, elicited such a visceral response that when seeing it, I was kind of like, wow, this is amazing. And from that point on I began to question, you know, what I was doing, up against what I had seen and what I felt. More actually, what I had felt Probably would have been like 15.
Speaker 3:Think about that, nathan. Think about that Nathan Like to me. You know somebody who really kind of grew up in and around poverty, in and around struggling families and he has this ability that is really uncomparable. Where he's from Right, and then he has an opportunity and then he comes across as black and white of Paul Like and he goes. I mean, he has so many different responses and interviews to that. I was shocked, I was blown away. I couldn't believe it. I was marveled by it. It just wooed me.
Speaker 3:But the whole thing was like he didn't realize that something else existed outside of what he was doing and he already had the full artist spiritual mindset and soul at that age where it went. Had the full artist spiritual mindset and soul at that age where it went. Oh, no, no, there's something else for me to chase here. Right, that seems much bigger. Yeah, unending, that doesn't have an end. Everything I'm doing right now has an end. Yeah, I draw the figure, I do this, I do the story, whatever. And it just kind of stops to him. He said this feels like there's something unending. What am I going to do?
Speaker 3:And then he decided to go to college, for it went to Parsons for two years and I think he said in an interview it just was boring him, it wasn't giving him the opportunity to be completely free in the way he wanted to go. So he transferred to Cooper Union and had a pretty incredible set of mentors at Cooper Union, including one of our other favorite artists, jack Witten, who was. If you look at Leonardo's early work, you can see the mirror reflection in a lot of those early pieces too, before he went sculptural and installation. Even the 2D and flat wall pieces are really, in my eyes, a swan song to Witten in a way as well. Of is a swan song to Witten in a way as well. But just to me, man, it completely blew me away that story of this kid overcoming in a way that was like quick success. Don't want it Right At 15 years old.
Speaker 3:I want the hard work to discover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, having that level of resolve, because he was touched at such a soul level and just knowing it didn't even sound like it was that difficult of a decision, he just knew. Nope, he knew I'm supposed to go this way, not that way it's incredible, it's absolutely incredible when he said I saw that picture and I knew right then.
Speaker 3:Right, it was this instant thing. Saw that picture and I knew right then. It's like it was this instant thing and it's almost like the Helen Frankenthaler story of walking into the Betty Parsons gallery and seeing the Pollock show for the first time, and then her running back to her studio and putting canvas on the ground and doing her thing and she says all I needed was permission. I just hadn't gotten it yet. That's right To me, that piece and I have this conversational thing Whether you like Pollock or not, whether you think his work's terrible or you love his work, you're inspired by it or not, he has given an enormous amount of artists in history permission to go, experiment and do things that didn't seem like they were supposed to be doing. It just gave him the ability to go. I can do whatever I want. Let's go, let's do it.
Speaker 2:There's another quote I want to share here where he speaks to how he sort of got about, got to the point of making that decision.
Speaker 1:My ability to be able to draw and paint well actually was getting in a way of me realizing something larger. It's hard to get past something so beautifully done and then, at the same time, ask the question what's underneath that? I decided it was time for me to stop using what I did well. So what I did was, almost literally, tied my hands. I said okay, you can no longer paint or draw and you're going to have to find another way to create.
Speaker 2:Again, go watch these videos, because you see some of these illustrations that he was doing, you know, as a, as a high schooler, and these illustrations are, I mean it's you can absolutely see why he was getting the attention that he was from, from DC, from Marvel, why he had options to to stay on, to stay on that path. You know, I think this is an interesting question, I think one that would be worth discussing for us, but I think it's a he brings up a critical question that would be valuable for all of us to ask ourselves, which is am I too comfortable? Is what I'm doing now too easy? Right, yeah, and we may or may not have the strength of character to completely, in his words, tie our hands behind our back and completely set aside something that is working. But wow, what's on the other side of that?
Speaker 2:Am I getting too comfortable? Have I done what I needed to do here? And what else is on the other side of what might be? And also realizing that obviously there are a lot of ways to get from one place to another, but there's a lot of value in completely setting aside that thing or the things that are making us comfortable, that are keeping us comfortable and completely opening up a complete new vein of work. That wouldn't have been possible had we remained tethered to the thing that was working, that was keeping us comfortable. What do you think about?
Speaker 3:that.
Speaker 2:What's what's? I know there's been times in your, in your career, because you've, you've been, you've been at this a while. You've you've made a number of different you know decisions, conscious or or maybe at a subconscious level, to make different shifts. So how do you think about that question and that decision?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and just to remind everybody, if you haven't listened to our episode from March 27th the Greater the Artist, the Greater the Doubt. We kind of go into some of these ideas about Nathan and myself in our studio practice pretty intensely and thickly. So just a reminder for everybody, that's the March 27th episode. This spoke to me so much, it was a confidence builder for me really studying and diving into Leonardo for this episode, because I really try to be what he is in that way and he's really taken, you know that first jump. He's taking his existing facilities right Of what he knows how to do and is extremely good at drawing and he completely went opposite. You know what I mean. So he left the control, he left the, the plan, he left. I mean all that's planning, it's control, it's whatever. He completely like you see, tied his hands and went totally different, completely different. And that's something every time I find I'm really really truly controlling something. I'm switching it up. I'm switching it up. I feel like, okay, I'm asking questions with everything I'm trying here and the second I start to resolve those. I want a whole lot more questions. I don't want just one more question, I want a hundred more questions to go explore, because I know what that inroad is going to be. I know what's going to happen If you gosh. What an example.
Speaker 3:Look at Leonardo's first works, look at his first works and then look at today. Like you see this gradual, gradual, gradual, slow ramp to things, just exploding in ways. And I think too, I mean what. It took him seven years to get there. I think we talk about that in a minute. But he had this moment of just disappearing into the studio to work things out for a very long period of time before pushing work out there. Studio to work things out for a very long period of time before pushing work out there. Right, like, who has that persistent patience to do that? I mean, I've done it in six months For seven years. I've done it in six months Something that was giving him recognition shows and was absolutely working.
Speaker 2:It's tremendous. I mean, you talk about questions. Back to that first quote that we shared. The struggle is the fact that you don't have the answers is actually the most beautiful part of the journey Absolutely that's the beautiful part. You talk about asking more and more questions and most of which we won't have the answers to when they're asked. We may never find the answers definitively, but it's the journey that really excites us, that leads us to the next place. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. There's another quote I want to share Timeless. You had something else on that. Yep, All right.
Speaker 1:There is no escaping your past With certainty, absolute certainty. I can look back on some of the configurations that I've created and I can see those projects. I can see the landfills.
Speaker 2:There's no escaping your past. I don't know about you, but when I heard him say that, it brought me back to Louise, and how much of her past is baked into all of know, all of her work, all of the memories, all the experiences that she had. I think it was Fellini that said all art is autobiographical. Yeah, so if we agree that that's true, I do, I think you do as well. Yeah, absolutely, it doesn't have to be. I mean autobiographical can mean anything you know it doesn't have to be. I mean autobiographical can mean anything you know. It doesn't have to be an objective narrative sense. It can be, of course, but it doesn't have to be right. It's going to be just baked into the DNA of everything that you make, because it's coming from you and it's flowing through you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot lately, even before we started listening to this, because I was reading a book about one of my favorite authors, madeline L'Engle, and she was talking about when she was writing another book and she was saying how each time she's writing about a character that may be 14 years old or 15 years old so let's say, she's writing about a character who's a 14 year old girl and she says I have to go back to when I'm 14 and think about who I was, what I was, what I did at that point to write about that. And she said so many writers have trouble doing that. And then she says this quote I'm still every age I've ever been, and that's a very simple thing. But we forget that often and I think what Leonardo is saying and what you and I believe is, even then, when those memories and those ideas are coming back, we're able to really put ourselves back into that moment when we're making and be that right. It's you working on a piece that you discovered in the woods and then remembering when you and your dad were walking through the woods and you found this piece right and you wanted to go put it in your pile right and then your dad well, you need to take some stuff out of there. Then if you're going to put these pieces in, we need to, you know. So it's like, but that is, it's baked in, it's 100% baked in.
Speaker 3:I just love that quote. Like I'm still every age, I've ever been age, I've ever been so when I'm telling stories of moments in my life, it's just, yeah, I've got tears like welling up because it's just, it's a very simple thing, but it's so powerful yes, and especially for an artist, when those things are baked in and you're sharing stories and you're thinking of moments, whether it's healing trauma, addiction, recovery, all these things you're still that person and I think that's what Louise was the best at for me in art when she made some of those works she was creating as the 15-year-old Louise who was just dying inside for her father to respect her Right. And when you walk into one of those rooms, you are right in there. Whether you know what it's saying or not, it has the power to touch you in a way that you go. I think I need to really go research this piece because it just did something to me.
Speaker 2:That is so powerful that I need to run and check this out. I think I shared this story in a previous episode, but I'm going to share it again, just since we're talking about Louise. But I was at the Art Institute of Chicago with my mom, whatever five months ago. Yeah, you sent me that picture. Yeah, walked into a room full of full I think there were eight or nine Louise pieces in the room and my mom had no context. We uh we had some drive time as a road trip to go see some family and so I uh made her listen to our episode as we were killing some drive time after that. But she walked in the room without you know any, but so that was really cool to watch, to see her experience, that, that, the depth of her work, without, without any context, and just to before I went full art nerd and you know, told her everything that, uh, you know that I knew and and and and for context purposes. But before I did that, I asked her like, how does this sit with you? How does this make you? And it was just, it was just tremendous.
Speaker 2:You know we talk about I'm still every age I've ever been. We were out to dinner last night. Our daughter, uh, had a choir concert, and so we're out to dinner afterwards with my wife and our two girls and my mom, and I said something ridiculous, as I uh often, as I often do, and our youngest was like how old are you? And I said, well, sweetie, I'm 45 and I'm also 15. And so, which is absolutely true, and so I, you know, but I think about you know, when you talk about you know, louise, it's being able to tap into that, the five-year-old, the 10-year-old, the 20, right With through the lens of wisdom and lived experience that we've acquired along the way. That's different, that's different than how we would have been able to even, you know, articulate or communicate our experience at those younger ages. But it's, it's, it's beautiful, it's just beautiful. Love it. There, it is, love it, yeah, you got to double down.
Speaker 3:You can't love it, love it, listen, that's the tie.
Speaker 2:That is the tie Love it, love it, love it. But it never sounds like you do.
Speaker 3:But I do. I mean, I catch myself, nathan, now saying that to people on the phone and I just think of you making fun of me for going.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're not excited about what I said. You've got beautiful energy, but when you love it, love it.
Speaker 3:When you say that, to me it's like let's let's time to move on.
Speaker 2:Let's move on. I'm not actually interested in what we're talking about right now, let's play another clip.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:One of the issues that has consistently come up when people write about the art is that they talk about found objects. Actually, I don't work with found objects. Most of my material I actually create it in the studio. So I actually go out and I buy material, brand new stuff. I actually become the weather.
Speaker 2:So, ty, I don't know about you I saw one of Drew's pieces before I knew anything about him it was quite a while ago and I remember viewing the work being blown away by it and then, when I later learned that everything was self-manufactured, was created by him and and by by the weather, I couldn't believe it. I mean, it was, it was it's mind blowing to think, uh, everything, almost everything that he uses, um, he purchases, and it's, you know, raw, basic form, and does everything to those materials to make it look the way that it does. It's, uh, it's pretty wild, I mean. So, for those of you that may not be familiar with his work, definitely go and look at his works through that lens of he touched all that a lot. You know, through so many different processes and things that he learned over time to transform those materials from what they once were into what they are now, those materials from what they once were into what they are now.
Speaker 3:Is that right? Yeah, wowed me. Yeah, I didn't, I had no idea, I had no clue, and I guess I would consider myself a mini Drew Storian or Drew Wyatt now, because I just I love the guy so much and I think it's not just his work but it's his personality and joy that just exudes anytime I watch him, I'm just even more in love with him. But joy that just exudes anytime I watch him. I'm just even more in love with him. But so, being a Drew story and it's like it makes sense, yeah, it makes absolute sense. It would not make sense if everything was just a found object and already weathered and put together. No, he is taking, you know, somebody who is using found objects and doing ready-mades and things, and he's completely creating every bit of wood or piece of poor, all these things into art pieces. Yeah, right, so he is the medium. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So there's a there's a more in-depth quote on the weathering process that we're going to share in just a second here, but you brought up something really important that I wanted to discuss today.
Speaker 2:But it's the, the absolute joy that exudes from. I mean, you can? This is a happy human being, it's marvelous. It's marvelous because he just, he, it just he's so fun to listen to. He's such a great communicator, he's just joyful.
Speaker 2:And I think it was definitely um, the uh, the Carrie Scott interview on her podcast Scene, which is fantastic. That's on all the podcast places. Definitely go listen to that. That's of the whatever eight different long-form interviews that I listened to in preparation for this. That's one of my favorites, for sure. But she says this and she identifies it so perfectly, for sure, but she says this and she identifies it so perfectly. She said you know, there's such a, there's such a and I'm paraphrasing here but there's such a difference between your personality, which is so light and joyful, and the heaviness of your work. And and I do not recall his response exactly, but it was a form of like, yeah, like, this is me, this is, this is the work, but it was such an interesting thing to think about.
Speaker 2:I had an interesting experience in um, in Munich. Uh, after the, after the opening, after the opening, the, the uh, benjamin, at the gallery. He said one thing I heard a lot from a lot of uh, you know people who were there was they didn't the people that talked to you or heard you talk, they didn't expect you to be this way after seeing your work. And I said what do you mean, uh? And he said you, you, just you don't seem like somebody who would make work like this. I said I think that's uh, I think that's a compliment, I don't whatever. Uh, but it was. It was interesting to hear and I was like huh, that's that's interesting. It was actually so.
Speaker 2:When I heard this, when I heard that as part of the interview, it was, it was. It was encouraging that, uh, um, any type of work can come from any type of person. Back to our earlier quote of you can't escape your past and what's what's in you is going to come out through your work. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be any certain way that is or is not consistent with how your work appears, some of my favorite work. Again, it's way more about the art than the artist, but I love being surprised when there is a gap of what you think somebody who makes this type of work and how they occur, how they present, how they communicate. It's a really interesting thing. Absolutely, let's hear more about his process.
Speaker 3:Make sure to tune in to episode two of Leonardo Drew to hear more about his process Coming soon. Stay tuned.
