Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Your Work Knows Everything—Are You Listening?
Have you ever felt like your artwork knows more than you do? In this intimate, unplanned conversation recorded during a Montana retreat, Ty and Nathan explore the vital yet often overlooked practice of soul care for artists.
Surrounded by the sounds of birdsong and nestled in Montana's rolling landscape, we dive into what happens when artists intentionally step away from their studios. More than just a luxury, these moments of pause—whether through travel, immersion in nature, or simple daily rituals—fundamentally transform our creative practice and the work that emerges from it.
Drawing wisdom from Mary Oliver's poetry collection "Redbird" and Jack Whitten's studio journals, we unpack what it means to create "not for the sake of winning, but for sheer delight and gratitude." Oliver's observation that "it is a serious thing just to be alive on this fresh morning in this broken world" reminds us that pausing to notice our surroundings isn't just pleasant—it's essential to developing our artistic voice.
We share our personal soul care practices, from morning reading rituals and mindful walks to the transformative power of travel and trying uncomfortable new experiences. The conversation explores how these moments help us break free from achievement-oriented creation and return to our work with renewed vision. As Whitten noted, "Nature does not think"—it simply exists. There's profound creative wisdom in learning to sometimes just be rather than constantly do.
Whether you're struggling with burnout or simply seeking to deepen your creative practice, this conversation offers practical inspiration for incorporating soul care into your artistic journey. Take a moment with us, slow down, and discover how the small pauses might actually hold everything you need.
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@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
Okay, you ready.
Speaker 2:Well, not really. But I mean, are we ever ready? I already told everybody what usually happens when we're getting ready to start, and I just witnessed it. You went to get a book to bring a quote. Then 20 minutes later you came out with mocktails.
Speaker 1:It wasn't 20 minutes, but if you're going to include that, you need to say how tasty it is.
Speaker 2:It is very delicious. Not a Paloma, it's a Naloma. So non-alcoholic Paloma, it's a Naloma. I think it's super years now with my brother-in-law, lamar, and a group of guys who become good friends and invited Nathan to come on this one with us, and so we've been floating the river and fishing. You were tired of being the token artist.
Speaker 2:I was tired of being the token artist in a group of entrepreneurs and I needed another artist with me.
Speaker 2:But we were floating the river yesterday and Nathan was fishing I can care less about fishing so I was writing, uh, poetry and just observing everything around me. Make sure you include a clip of the I will definitely trout that I got. I will put up a photo of the trout that Nathan caught and released and uh and released, and I do have some video of you on the river untangling your line, which is what I spent most of my time, which is what we spent most. But we just thought we'd sit down and just share with you and just spend some time hanging out. And and I've really been reflecting since we've been here on soul care, and I think that's something that we both know is a necessity for artists. We've talked about it, sprinkle it in in certain episodes and things but really that that getting away to come back, which we all know when we leave and we go somewhere and we are leaving our studio, which I did not want to leave my studio the last week, especially since you just got settled.
Speaker 2:I just got rolling and settled in the new studio. I didn't want to leave, but I know the impact that going away and coming back will have. There's that reset, that refresh, but when you're doing it in a location that is just filled with absolute beauty that you cannot not be inspired and it just fills you when you come back, it just tends to do something, absolutely, yeah, I mean I think anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1:That's why travel is so great, right, it's like anytime we can get out of our normal environment, our normal world where we don't have to worry about I mean even the studio, all the things, all the seven crying babies, yeah, that are that are calling our name or our own, you know, homes, obviously, where there's always stuff to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:To take care of. You know, there's a lot to be said for getting away, no matter what you're doing. For getting away no matter what you're doing, but I think, especially given what we're doing and the type of work that we're doing, how intense it can be, how all consuming it can and should be yeah, I think these times like this are incredibly, incredibly valuable.
Speaker 2:So when I brought Thanks for inviting me to come. Yeah, I'm glad you're here. I brought art supplies with me. You know I brought little sketchbooks and notebooks. I know you brought your journals and books, and we brought stuff to still be mentally in an art space but really just disengaging from the daily activities of everything else, in a space where the air is completely beautiful and fresh and clear, enjoying things that maybe we don't get as much of in our regular life.
Speaker 2:And one of the things I've been doing while here is just I've been devouring the book Redbird by Mary Oliver for probably the past three months. I've read it multiple times but I picked it up again to read and a poem, one of her poems, just hit me so hard that it made me dig deeper into the work, something we talk about with our own work on a regular basis, and that you find that artist that you love, really really dig into the work and then, and so I really started digging in hard. So I just have a few things to just kind of share and love to hear what you because I've talked about it briefly but I haven't really shared like the moments from the book, uh, and and there's going to be a live reaction.
Speaker 1:I mean we, in terms of most of our shows, this is a low prep, very low prep situation.
Speaker 2:You know it was really. It's yeah, very. It's just like. This is a free thought, free thinking moment. Um just Barate in the process and we said we wanted to do something while we're here. Why would we not? We never get to be together in person?
Speaker 1:this is our first time recording yeah, let's not our mics on and sharing space, but our first time, uh yeah, recording in the same area, same so room so we thought, oh, let's just kind of talk about some thoughts and things that are going on.
Speaker 2:And then you said, oh, you should share some of the things you've been thinking about with redbird. And so I'm just going to read, I'm going to paraphrase I want you to get this book and read it. So I'm not going to read full poems maybe one but I'm just going to paraphrase some moments. This one is from a poem called Invitation and it says oh, do you have time to linger for just a little while out of your busy and very important day, for the gold finches have gathered in a field of thistles for a musical battle to see who can sing the highest note of the lowest. Do you have time? Not just for the sake of winning, but for sheer delight and gratitude. Believe us, they say it is a serious thing just to be alive on this fresh morning in this broken world.
Speaker 2:I beg you, do not walk by without pausing to attend this ridiculous performance. It could mean something. It could mean everything. It could be what Rilke meant when he wrote you must change your life, the beginning. Do you have time to linger for a little while out of your very busy and important day Number one, not for the sake of winning anything, but the first sake of just sheer delight and gratitude. And I love, don't walk by without pausing. And I could mean something, but it could mean everything. I just thought about this with being an artist, but it could mean everything. I just thought about this with being an artist. Like one of the things we're trying to do and I'm trying to do is slow my mental process down. Slow, that's the studio, that's our space, where we walk in, and time should stop. And it's like I want to slow the process down so that I am able to be aware I am able to notice things that are as small as the goldfinches, arguing that she's observing where she lives. We can hear the birds behind us.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'm actually going to pick that up, but I hope it does. As you're reading that I'm hearing the concert behind us, it could mean something.
Speaker 2:It could be something small, but maybe it's everything. So I was was reading that and I'm like that's what I'm trying to do with my own work in the studio and make those pauses longer than shorter, because what I discover or what I hear the work telling me or I'm able to find in that moment could be something, but maybe it's everything.
Speaker 1:The part of that that really resonates with me. The moment you said it, I just it just clicked, but not for the sake of winning, but for the sheer say that again For the sheer delight and gratitude.
Speaker 2:Say that again For the sheer delight and gratitude, For the sheer delight and gratitude.
Speaker 1:That's something that it's. It's perfect for where I'm at, and what I kind of brought into this this time away was just I'm so, I'm, I'm, I'm. I'm understanding that more and more about myself, but I'm all about, I'm wired for achievement every day we talked about this, you and I last night are on the fire. But like every day, you know, not on purpose, but just by my default mode is I'm waking up and thinking what can I achieve today? What can I accomplish? You know, believing the lie that I have value because of what I do and not because of who I am. Yeah, so, even on a, on a retreat schedule, where there's nothing that I have to do, there's still, I mean, hell, even the fact that we're doing. I'm glad we're doing this, but this was another. Oh, yeah, While we're there, we can get a pot, Maybe we can get a couple episodes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, maybe I can, you know. And so it's really not for the sake of winning, but for the sheer delight and gratitude. I mean, even what we're doing right now, just to, you know, get real specific about this exact moment. But we're just having a conversation for sheer delight and gratitude. This might not be the most perfectly constructed outline we've ever used, and that's okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's just a such an important reminder, both here now when we are all of us able to get away and take a break, but even more important when we're in it. Yeah, absolutely. And she I didn't read the part that she follows up with on that, because she says but for sheer delight and gratitude. Believe us, they say it is a serious thing just to be alive on this fresh morning in this broken world. She's like listen, don't you know this? That just the fact that you're alive on this morning in this broken world, you should have some delight and gratitude anyways. Yeah, don't do things for like you should already, and that's gratitude anyways. Yeah, Don't do things like you should already, and that's the whole thing is like listen.
Speaker 2:That's what I love about Mary Oliver observing nature. Listen, the birds don't care. Yeah, they're singing every morning, no matter what. Yeah, raining, hailing, snowing, they're still singing their songs, right. And so I love that analogy of we get to be alive. We should also be doing the same thing each fresh morning, and I know for some of us that's a lot more difficult than others, depending on where we are and what we've been through. But I always say this to artists too like man, you should have some sheer gratitude and thankfulness that you have this ability to do these things and go deep into them and explore them and give those gifts to the world.
Speaker 1:That reminds me of something that was said around dinner last night Pressure is a privilege, pressure is a privilege, pressure is a privilege. So even the things that, whether they be external pressures, whether they be self-invented internal pressures, plenty of those. Yeah, no, I'm raising my hand. I thought you were waving Wave this way up in the distance.
Speaker 2:Hey, I thought you were waving to a horse in the field or a white tail deer or whatever's hanging out over here, I gotta look.
Speaker 1:I was raising my hand. I was raising my hand for, you know, self-imposed internal pressures, mostly self-imagined and not even real, but the pressure to do something of significance is in itself a privilege and something to be thankful for. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Okay, this poem I've read multiple times and it never jumped out at me the way it did when I read it in marfa recently and I was sitting there one morning and I went oh, that's my philosophy on art, how did I never notice this before? And it's a very simple poem called Small Bodies. I'm going to read this full poem because it's really short. And she says and for those that aren't nature lovers, tough luck. You're getting a lot of nature poetry today and I don't care, you need it. Okay, it's called Small Bodies.
Speaker 2:It is almost summer In the pond, the pickerel leap and the delicate teal have brought forth their many charming young, and the turtle is ravenous. It's hard sometimes, oh Lord, to be faithful. I am more boldly made than the little ducks paddling and laughing, but not so bold as the turtle with his greasy mouth. I know, you know everything. I rely on this. Still, there are so many small bodies in the world for which, I am afraid, the line that jumped at me was I know, you know everything. I rely on this. And the first thing that jumped in my mind was me standing in front of one of my works of art and studying it deeply, silently, and knowing that my work knows everything I rely. My work knows more than I do, yeah, and I rely on that and so I wrote oh my gosh, this is my philosophy. This has been my growing philosophy over time, by studying, by looking, by asking questions, by discussing work. Like everything is in the work for me to discover and we talked about this last week in the last episode with Leonardo drew like that study and discovery and all those things that's in the work.
Speaker 2:The more we read, the more we listen, the more we journal, the more introspective we are, the more we ask questions of each other as artists, the more we seek out artists that know more or further along than us and ask for wisdom from them. That all feeds into our experience. When we're alone in our studio and we're looking at our work and we're studying it, we have to realize, like the work knows everything, it's going to tell us where things are going. We have to be so in tune with what's happening in our work because so many times we're operating in our subconscious when we're creating our work, it's not our foreconscious. That is the understanding part we recognize every day.
Speaker 2:There are things happening that are coming from memory what we've seen what sticks out, what color patterns may our brain may be picking up on what compositions? So there's things in the work that we don't even know we're putting in there right, and I read that and I was like, oh, and it's taught, it's titled small bodies and I think, like small bodies of work have more to tell you about the large body of your lifetime of work. Each time of working on a body of work in my lifetime, those are small bodies of work that make up the whole, but every one of them is guiding me to the next. How much am I doing what we just read in the last poem, read in the last poem and really taking the time to stop and notice and listen and look and be appreciative and allow it to really speak to us and to allow something to speak to us.
Speaker 1:We have to. We have to be able to listen. We have to, which means we have to stop talking. Much like conversation. If I'm going to hear you, if I'm going to try and understand what you're saying, I need to not be talking for sure and ideally not be thinking about what I'm going to say next. And it's no different with observing the natural world or observing our work. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the difference between, you know, scientific studies and and scientific experiments. You know, think about things that happen in the natural world. It's like the difference between jane goodall being embedded with the chimpanzees, right, gorillas and, yeah, yes, and just watching and just trying to go to extreme lengths over long periods of time to just get them comfortable with her presence from a distance, to still behave the way that they normally would. Yeah, contrast that with you know, animal studies in a lab, right?
Speaker 1:many which have been done yeah, unnatural, you know environments that are very much constructed and engineered to test a certain outcome. Right, we want to be more in the former than the latter. Yeah, we want to be more. And of course there is a time when, if we're talking about our work, of course there's. There are times where we are going to test and retest and keep experimenting, for sure, but it's the observing and just sitting with what is, without trying to affect or change the outcome.
Speaker 1:It's a really good practice for ourselves as human beings who are interested in continuing to grow and evolve as people. Yeah, is just observing. Hmm, why? What is Nathan experiencing right now? Why what is Nathan experiencing right now?
Speaker 1:And speaking the third person, you know, not like an egotistical right, right, you know, athlete or performer, but but in the in the context of, like, this is a I'm observing myself from that objective third party, you know perspective, looking at myself as, without identifying with, with the self, right is what is Nathan experiencing right now?
Speaker 1:And just checking in with ourselves. You know we happen to be in an amazing environment where we are completely removed from, you know, the day to day, which makes it so much. All the conditions are in place for us to be able to, you know, sit in that space, um, but what I'm interested in talking about, and thinking about today as well, ty is like how we can, you know, have these moments and really protect moments like this in the day to day as well, because these are unique experiences that may they don't come around. You know, I don't get to do this on a super regular basis, you know. So, I guess, if I was to throw it back to you in the form of a question, you know what are some of the things I've got, some that I'll share as well, but I want to start with you what are some things that you do on like a day-to-day basis to have those moments of of, of rest, of sitting, of recharging?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean daily. I try to read every morning and it's about 90 percent of time. I mean, there are some mornings I'm so eager to get in the studio that I bypass reading, yeah, and I'm straight in there to start working on something. But that's that's. That's rare, because for me I need that. I don't need the cup of coffee for caffeine in the morning. It's really an enjoyable moment. Yeah, I mean I drink a lot less coffee than I used to, but it's like there's something about the the smell feeds me, the taste feeds me. I love it. There's something about holding the cup with my book, like that. That just gets me prepared in a great way.
Speaker 2:Mentally removes any, you know, worry about anything that could be happening. But for me it's just a moment right now. There are definite days where I need to go, stand outside and feel the sunlight on my face for 10 minutes. You know, cause that just we all know. I mean that's very healthy to do and I do go on walks frequently and usually I'm listening to music without words when I'm walking classical music, jazz but for me that's just a. It may be in a neighborhood not like this, but I have sunlight, I have green, I've got the birds flying around and I can breathe free, fresh air, and that's something that, for me, is just really. This is you'll understand this one any animal people out there gonna understand this just picking up cash and giving them a hug you know what I mean, my puppy just picking them up and holding them, not going out and collecting from all the people no, not holding my, my little puppy, my studio assistant, and just giving them a hug, like there are.
Speaker 2:There are these moments that seem so small, and I think that's what mary oliver's really getting at in these things is like listen, there's a simplicity in this. The simplicity is all these things that are around us to provide beauty and provide observation, like watching this robin, while we're talking, continually move from place to place, and he's observing us yeah, observing us or she's watching what we're doing. Like there's these mystical, magical things around us every day, no matter where we live, that are supplemental to life, but they're supposed to be ingrained into what we do. To be ingrained into what we do. There's supposed to be moments to look at the blooming wildflowers next to you, blowing in the wind, and notice that and watch it and wonder about it. But what that does for your soul, even in those few minutes, it's a very mystical, powerful thing that takes you deeper into you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I truly believe that and I know that's that's what she's saying in this entire book is listen, this is easy, but I know how hard it is. Yeah, listen, this is here for you too, if you're willing to do it. Yeah, those are a couple of things for me. Those are a couple of things for me.
Speaker 1:I want to talk about the, you know. So, for me, I think that the the challenge that I have is first acknowledging that I need to rest, Like I think there's. I just think of it in terms of like there's. There's proactive rest and there's reactive rest, which could otherwise be called breaks or whatever. If I am, when I am consistent with my you know morning routines and blah, blah, blah, like that's the proactive, you know charging the battery, you know sharpening the ax, you know, before getting into it, and really being intentional about protecting that time on the front end, because oftentimes, once I get into it, I'm into it and it's, it's. Everything perpetuates. The next thing you know, and so so that's a big part of it is is, to your point, like having certain just natural points in the day where that happens, you know, no matter what.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that on the reactive side, that is just as oftentimes more important for me is to simply recognize all right, I need to step away. Yeah, I need to. I need to at least sit down in my, you know, studio chair, I need to pull out my, my, my lab note, you know, yeah, hard, and I need to at least write some things down better. Yet get my creative director in my lap and just sit, before I even start to feel like I've got a. Do you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm a doer, everybody that has an animal or a creature at home, whether it be cat or dog, they know exactly what we're saying right now. It's. It's a magical feeling when that person that loves you unconditionally, that little creature, that when you just give them that hug and science also tells you cortisol levels, stress, anxiety levels, yeah, and that just that moment you know like put you back, yeah, on a level playing around and yeah but it starts with recognizing.
Speaker 1:It starts with just recognizing like, oh, nathan is pressing right now, nathan is trying trying to, and I and I I'm getting better at catching myself in those moments where I'm not listening, I'm not responding, I'm trying to make something. Yeah, I'm trying to push, push, push, which there are times for it. Does that? That does have, you know, merit at times, but their listener may or may not have that in common with myself. But I think it's just acknowledging for each of us, like, okay, what are my little yellow flag moments that I can catch and realize, oh, it's time to set the, just to step away. Yeah, to go for a walk, to sit down and read something. You and I, we talk about this all the time, what our journaling practices do for us, and I've got a number of different types of journaling, I've got different journals for those things.
Speaker 1:But on the tactical side, when I get stuck with the work, it is that studio log and it's writing down. Once I am settled, once I can observe objectively, as objectively as possible, on something that I've just materially changed or done something to, even if time or a lot of it has not yet passed, but just observing, sitting, listening, and I like to just write down everything that comes to mind that I could do. Yeah, I mean, at any point, on any given work that we're doing, there's any number of forks in the road that have not just an A or B, but right, there's an infinite number of things that we could potentially do, and so I'll sit and I'll write down all right, here are then whatever. Sometimes it's a handful of things, sometimes it's, you know, 12 or 15 things. Yeah, and then I'll sit some more without writing and just say, okay, now I'm just going to cross off the ones that you know, no bad ideas on the, on the just capturing portion, but then getting into all right, what, what really makes, what do you need?
Speaker 1:Dear peace in front, like, and having that conversation as opposed to just continuing to be in motion. You know we were talking about this last night as well, this might be interesting to kind of circle back on, but I was sharing with you how I have a, really when I'm in in this. That's why being away from the studio is so valuable, because when I'm in the studio, when I'm in my space, I I have this compulsion to always be moving and always be working, which, again, is not a a part of me that I'm trying to stop right or short circuit altogether. I think that that is, you know, generally positive, but it does prevent me from being in tune and recognizing when it's time to just breathe and sit and not be in perpetual motion and action.
Speaker 2:Right, there's another poem that she writes about. Just start at the time. She wrote at the time in america, that was, that was going on, and I think it was what time frame is this it was right after the iraq war, okay, started weapons of mass destruction, etc.
Speaker 2:Etc. And so she was just kind of writing about what she thought people would remember about our country at that time and that she's heartbroken for what she thinks people remember. But one of the things that she mentions is you know what, if everybody had a little bit more humility, empathy and stopped to take the time to notice everything more, what that would do to the community as a whole, the community of humanity, of human beings, took the time to notice the wildflowers, notice the robin perched on top of the barn chirping. No, like what would happen if everybody collectively, yeah, did take those moments to stop and notice more often.
Speaker 2:And her are, she thinks it would have a lot greater impact than one would ever know. And but you think about just that idea in its own. I think that's part of what our responsibility as artists is is to create things that allow people to take a moment to stop and think in a different way. Yeah, right, it's almost as if, you know, we're kind of creating some of that ability to get people to come back to something by what they saw, or return to something or move ahead to something.
Speaker 1:Written 35 years ago. Could have been written yesterday.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, let's see it was 2008 actually. Okay, yeah, so, but I'll bet that poem was written around that time. With this it got published, yeah, 2008 so yeah, so I'll jump in with this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the um the book that I bought brought. You did buy it, I did, I definitely paid for this yes. The book that I brought with is Notes from the Woodshed, which I've already done an episode on we're going to circle back to as well. I am going back through this. I'm especially excited. So Ella and I are youngest. We're taking a trip to New York next month.
Speaker 1:It's primarily she loves theater and music. It's gonna be mostly broadway centric, but we're gonna see the whitton show at at mama, so I'm super, super excited for that. But I've been rereading these, which is a great thing like to read whitton's journals while also doing whatever my own version of reflection and journaling it's it's. It's really cool. Yeah, so this is something. This is from page 82.
Speaker 1:It's remarkable what time will do for your head for years of hard work. Later I discover what I was trying to do. So what sticks out to me about that, in the context of what we're discussing today, is just the benefit of time and space. And we're not going back to our studios and the things that we're working on. I mean, I'm never when I'm home. I don't ever spend more than one day out of the studio Sundays, yeah, maybe Sundays. You may not even have a single day where you don't want at least walk in your studio and know that it's right on your problem Not now and so just the benefit of having some space between what we're doing and when we consider what it even means or, more importantly, what's coming next or what it's inspiring or what it's what it's leading to.
Speaker 1:A couple pages later uh, jack writes I take my. This is from 1975. I take my cue from nature, even with color. I take my cue from nature, ie presenting an all-over tonal range with occasional patches of hue. I want to put the fear of god in these paintings.
Speaker 2:I want to evoke a spiritual, magical, cosmic existence with a material connection, emotionally charged that's one of my favorite sections in the entire book because it absolutely defines jack whitten for me, because of who I have learned he is and how I have been brought into his process and way of thinking and way of infusing cosmic right, he, he says cosmic, quite a bit all the time, all the time and I love just how he's saying I want to invoke the fear of god into them.
Speaker 2:Viewer, curator, gallery owner, museum director that's who he's talking about and other artists. Yeah, like he, he wants it to be so spiritually in Bocan right that it elicits the fear of God into them and lots of different ways, because you learn more in the book all the things that he's fighting or dealing with or struggling with outside of, outside of his work, that are art world generate. I just love that there's a focus and a calm focus of a calm and very intense mentality into making the work that he's making at that time and that he ends up discovering right down the road.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think about, you know, his whole practice around. I don't know what, I can't recall exactly what year he got the place in Crete, but once he had that was an annual, you know, sort of pilgrimage for him and that's a place where he would go and be completely away from his painting for a couple months, a few months, you know, and wow, I mean to have something like that again. Whatever it is for each of us, whatever we're able to to, to make, you know, possible or build into our lives, but taking our cue, taking his cue from nature, in order to do that, you've got to spend some time in it. And so you think about the completely different environment that he consciously put himself into and being in a completely different part of the world I mean so much of. If you've gotten this book yet, if you haven't, you need to. It's, it's so, so good.
Speaker 1:And since doing that episode and I couldn't have been more strong in my insistence that people get into this book I got a lot, of a lot of people, you know, hit me up and DM me saying, oh, I'm so glad you recommended that. I really I haven't yet had anybody be. I really didn't dig it too much. Like you will love this book and if you don't, if you really read it and don't love it, I will uh, I'll give you your money back, I will buy it for you and but you have to give it to somebody else. Yeah, if you didn't really love it, you know. But you think about that time away and you know we did our Leonardo Drew episode a few episodes back or episodes, I guess we did it in two parts. But we talked as well about Drew's practice of traveling to different parts and how that really helps him to develop his what Say it.
Speaker 2:You just threw me for a loop, calling me out like that on an instant.
Speaker 1:It's the word that I teach you about the other day.
Speaker 2:Here's our problem with this podcast everybody and Nathan and I talk about this off camera. I'll be full in to explaining and discussing something and it elicits new thoughts and ideas in him, yeah, and then he is gone figuring out all these new things while I'm talking, and then there's what were you saying? So I just totally and I do it all the time Nathan's going and I'm like, oh, hold on a second, wait, this, that, that, oh. And then all of a sudden you get the and what is it? And you go oh, I was just 500 fucking miles away in my head. We're both just waiting for our turn to talk.
Speaker 1:Let's just be honest about it. I mean, it's really just like are you done yet? Okay, here's what I've got, this is the importance of finding.
Speaker 2:This is literally the importance in the world in finding that artist friend, yeah, that you're able to make disappear and go deeper and find new things and then say they're okay.
Speaker 1:I was trying to cue you up to hear the word that you pronounce in your. I'm not going to say mispronounced, but pronounce in your own way, that's a lot of work. That's a couple. There's a couple. Okay, you said we it came up like seven times in the drew episode. It's antenna, oh, antenna. Okay, now you know how to say it, I got it.
Speaker 2:That's what I was trying to get you to say, antana.
Speaker 1:There, it is Antana. All right, Our regular listeners go back and listen to Ty say Antana in the drill. Okay, but that's it. Bring this back. That was his whole thing about. If you're going to be a receiver. I'm paraphrasing here, but it's a good idea to put yourself in different places.
Speaker 2:So you can receive far more than you would be able to in one spot Right.
Speaker 1:So that's what, that's what he's done in traveling to all over the world. That's what what Witten was doing with his regular trips, um, you know, to Crete and, uh, you know, gone fishing. And what's cool too about when you get into jack story too. Um, I don't know that he did any painting in crete, but that's where he did, um, most of his sculptures was in crete, but that makes sense to me.
Speaker 2:100, that makes absolute sense. He's in crete, he's in greece. Yep, is I? I don't know if the history of sculpture I'll have to look this up was formed in greece. I mean, I'm sure it came from, uh, african nations and tribes and worked its way into Greece. But Greece is known for famous sculptors and you know a lineage of incredible architects and sculptors, so that influence, of course, would be absolutely prevalent. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we talk about this all the time, ty, but I think, you know, that's one of the things that's really so energizing about being away from the studio, where we have our whole little world. You know, we have everything, all the colors, all the tools, all the materials, you know, whatever at our disposal, and getting out of our regular space is just doing something different. You know, like I was uh observing you yesterday while everybody else was was fishing. Uh-huh, ty's sitting in the boat and he's not I'm not, that's not my thing, but he's sketching, he's observing, he's listening, and I would guess that you were able to observe and absorb certainly more than I was in that environment, because I'm thinking about how to fly fish, which is really tricky, and I was focusing on trying to learn how to do something that I didn't know how to do.
Speaker 1:But anyway, so, getting out of your space and doing something that you don't normally do, we were waiting for a boat earlier this morning and I, just a bunch of people were talking and then, as is my introverted nature, I'm like how can I get away from the people and go? Can I do something? Like I'm gonna be on a pontoon for a good amount of time. Yeah, uh, trapped, that's okay, that's, that's strong, but not a lot of options to go wander up and just be alone in my own little little world.
Speaker 1:So I saw this glorious pile of of driftwood, you know, and that I had to climb up to kind of get to, but you know, made a little driftwood, you know sculpture and jacklyn would have been in heaven and not been able to leave I thought about jack. I did too. That's the first thing I thought about. Yeah, she would have had a field day and there was some gorgeous, gorgeous pieces.
Speaker 2:She would have figured out a way how to rent a U-Haul and drive it back to Michigan. A hundred, percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but so just the value of getting into whatever that looks like I mean, it could be just the space that you're happening to be in, but but doing something that's different than you know, what you're normally doing, has tremendous value, absolutely. It's that much easier when you've completely removed the option of doing what you normally do. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:I think there's something for putting yourself at times in uncomfortable situations, yeah, and I'm not saying like something that you shouldn't be there or it's like, but putting yourself in opportunities to learn new things that you're uncomfortable with, right, uh, and I would say if america was better at being around people they're uncomfortable with, there'd be a whole lot more community and not as much fighting and arguing and hate being spewed. So I think in life they're like. The first time I came to Montana, I spent a day to experience fly fishing. I could care less about fishing. Yeah, and honestly, my guide on the river knew that, because every time the little indicator, which is the little floater thing that sits on the water when it goes under, that means a fish is on the hook and you're supposed to, you know, pull the fish is on the hook and you're supposed to, you know, pull the. And he would say indicator, indicator, indicator. Ty, how long has your indicator been underwater? Cause I've got, and I'm looking at the trees and I'm looking at the wind, old, bald eagle, you know, and it's like cause I just, but I did it and I spent a day.
Speaker 2:It was out of my comfort zone but I, you know, I tried something new and I think that that does absolutely impact who you are as a person with experience. Whether you like it or not, you did it. It's you know. New foods, I mean, I've traveled all over the world. I'm a very picky eater here at home, but when I travel the world I eat everything. I've eaten some of the craziest, wildest things in Africa, in Eastern Asia, that in small villages and refugee camps that you would never try, and I've tried them and some of them have gone. I love this. But that experience, even in not liking it, experience it with somebody else, with other people it does develop you as a human being in ways that are very special. Did you have any other Witten you wanted to share? Well, there was one more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's just it's because I'll Witten all day long. We can, we will, we will do well, We've got, at least we will Witten of uh, of that with, with Jamel it's going to be my new thing.
Speaker 2:Hey, you want to Witten for a while? Let's do it. What?
Speaker 1:page. It's kind of like Tophering yeah, you missed that, yeah, anyway, what I love about this, so some of what's in here are just, he's got studio logs for entire years and he may have just, you know, a lot of these are just one line entries from entire days and entire weeks. So this is the 8th of March 1993. Four words Nature does not think. Nature does not think, nature exists, it just is. Yeah, it just is. That's what's so fun about, it's so fascinating about the natural world, you know, as a whole.
Speaker 1:But I was just as interested I'm not too far from you there I was interested in trying, you know, fly fishing and having, but I was just as interested I'm not too far from you there. I was interested in trying, you know, fly fishing and having that experience. But, um, I was just as interested in watching the, the raccoons on shore and the muskrats and watching the way the bull snake, you know, made its way across the top of the water, and the egrets and the swallows and just all of everything else that we got a chance to observe and experience yesterday. It's, but it's not, it's not thinking, it's just existing, it's just living, it just is, you know, and I think that when we are at our best as artists, that's what we're doing. You know it's. It's the, it's the act of just being, of just responding to what's in front of us and what is. And the less I'm thinking the better, because my mind says a lot of ridiculous things and most of them are not true or relatively useful whatsoever.
Speaker 2:There's a. I was reading, I was going through quotes this morning so I wanted to share a Nick cave quote with somebody that's here with us. And as I was going through my notes trying to find one on vulnerability which there's quite a few from Nick cave I came across one that said sometimes we need permission to just be and not do. Yeah's what nature. It just is. Yeah, it's not doing, its being right. And sometimes we do need permission. We need somebody to tell us hey, nathan, quit doing, just be. Right now and I have this conversation with ours I'm like you're overdoing, you're overthinking, you're over worrying, you're over pressuring. Just get in there and just do a bunch of shit, just let it flow, don't. Don't worry, it's good or bad, all that stuff Like the Warhol quote that we're based on. But sometimes, but sometimes, we do need that person to let us know hey, it's okay to go spend a month flailing around and being horrible. Yeah, because that next month there could be something very beautiful yeah, you know so I think the do you have anything else?
Speaker 1:yeah, I do. Okay, I got a closer, I have a closing thought, but hit it okay, let me go first, yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's one more poem which I just love. There's some oh man, get it red bird poems by mary oliver and this one, the pulitzer, actually for poetry. This book, which makes sense because it's incredible, this is mornings at blackwater. This is a pond near her home. Mornings, mornings at Blackwater. For years, every morning, I drank from Blackwater Pond. I love that picture, just that start. For years, every morning, I drank from Blackwater Pond. It was flavored with oak leaves and also, no doubt, the feet of ducks, and always it assaged me from the dry bowl of the very past.
Speaker 2:What I want to say is that the past is the past and the present is what your life is, and you are capable of choosing what will be, my darling citizen. So come to the pond or the river of your imagination or the harbor of your longing and put your lips to the world and live your life. What, what I want? The past is the past. The present is what your life is. We've talked about that a lot in the podcast, with our trauma and recovery and the things that we've over. The past is the past. Our life is the present right now, and you're capable of choosing what that will be. Yeah, my darling citizen she's saying, you who are of the same world? I am, yeah, we are citizens of the same world, the same humanity.
Speaker 2:Uh, come to the pond, the river of your imagination or the harbor of your longing. A few different, uh descriptions there, three different bodies of water. Yeah, that she's talking about the pond, which is small and right there it's, at your doorstep. The river of your imagination, the thing that's constantly flowing and and going, yeah, right. And then the harbor of your longing, like the place where you come to dock, yeah, the place where you come to stay. What are you longing for? What do you need to sit and rest in? Right, those, those layers? Yeah, that she's painting there. Do these things put your lips to the world? Yeah, like that's a very sensual, sure, uh, actionable thing.
Speaker 1:Put your lips to the world and live your life, yeah if you are actually going to put your lips to one of those bodies of water, start with the river.
Speaker 2:You don't have that much that the duck feet.
Speaker 1:Pond water should be third on that list, probably maybe second if the harbor is salt water. But still, like pond water should not be your preferred natural cocktail if you're just getting started. But yeah, no, that's, that's so. It's so beautiful.
Speaker 2:I, I do need to get that, I'm gonna it's it's a must, I might just, I might just steal it from you. Well, that you cannot do, but I could.
Speaker 1:I bet I could manage cut to us wrestling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the end of the show and scene.
Speaker 1:No, I think the thing that I wanted to, to close on just as an idea was, was just the I uh, I think just how do we make this, you know, applicable to everyone anytime? We already kind of talked about it, but just getting out of your natural space, getting out of your natural you, um, and it can be as simple as a walk, it can be as simple as going to, you know, a park or just, if you're not an outdoors person, just a different place, just a whatever patio of a coffee a new coffee shop.
Speaker 1:Totally and just going to go, putting yourself in an environment that you're not typically in and just seeing what comes up, when you are able to sort of escape the trappings of the thick of it, right where, where you're spending most of your time and where you're getting your mail, so to speak. Yeah, man.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know what you are all doing today, but I hope but I hope that this impacted you at least in a way that would make you re-evaluate time a little bit, re-evaluate a separation of things for you in the studio that will make you just, even if it's just walking outside, like you said, and just letting the sun hit your face and experiencing just the existence of what is being alongside us, always doing Because we all operate in a harmony together, we're all here in the same space at the same time, right, and there is a harmony to that, and I think we need to be a part of that harmony in a very silent and reflecting way more than we are, and that's something that I'm even challenging myself to do.
Speaker 2:And sometimes it does take a weekend away. Yeah, you know, next to the rolling hills and the bluffs and Montana, by the river, but I would like it to be more about me just recognizing it regularly and taking a longer escape away somewhere else. But take a break, go, go do something to come back. Take a walk, go drink a glass of wine in a cafe that you haven't been to before, or just do something. Uh, highly encourage that.
Speaker 1:That's a pond water If you're feeling some pond water join us next time for our next episode of just make art. Yeah, I'm ready to go journal some more yeah, I'm gonna go right.
Speaker 2:All right, beautiful, I think that's a fun episode. Yeah, I don't know if I can get up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're gonna have to oh, I didn't get the book that I've counting you did go up to get Witten.
Speaker 2:That was the whole reason you went upstairs, remember, and then you got mock-tailed. Oh, did we hit record? I did, yeah, good, so I'm glad we got that.
Speaker 1:See if you like it. I'm going to get the book that I meant to get.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I'll see you in 20.
Speaker 1:But I might come back with a tasty treat.
Speaker 2:So you never know, sure you will.
