Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Part 1. Breaking down: How to Be An Artist by Jerry Saltz.
What if the path to becoming an artist wasn't shrouded in mystery but illuminated by practical wisdom? In this deep dive into Jerry Saltz's transformative book "How to Be an Artist," we explore the Pulitzer Prize-winning critic's generous, accessible, and remarkably grounded advice for creative souls at any stage of their journey.
"Art is for everyone," Saltz declares, immediately dismantling the barriers that keep so many from pursuing their creative calling. Whether you're wondering if you can be an artist without formal education, while working full-time, or while wrestling with crippling self-doubt, his answer rings clear: "Of course you can." Through our conversation, we unpack how Saltz's decades of observing artists have yielded insights that speak directly to the heart of the creative struggle.
The book's wisdom resonates powerfully throughout our discussion – from embracing the uncomfortable vulnerability of making art to recognizing that "the faster your work makes sense, the faster people will lose interest." We explore why certainty kills curiosity, how imagination forms the very essence of human existence, and why getting productively lost might be the most direct path to finding your voice. Saltz's practical advice – "cast your nets into the waters" of inspiration and "work, work, work" – offers a refreshing antidote to creative paralysis.
Perhaps most encouraging is Saltz's insistence that it's never too late to begin. Through stories of artists who found success later in life (including Saltz himself who didn't become serious about his calling until age 40), we confront the myth that artistic accomplishment requires early specialization. Whether you're just starting out or seeking to deepen your existing practice, this episode offers a roadmap filled with practical wisdom, compassionate encouragement, and the liberating reminder that "nothing happens if you're not working, but anything can happen when you are."
Buy "How to be an Artist" by Jerry Saltz
Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!
Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
Watch the Video Episode on Youtube or Spotify,
Nathan, we've been talking about this for a while and I'm pretty excited that we are about to embark on what we think is going to be a pretty long little journey here. I think this episode is going to be multiple parts because there's a lot of meat that we're about to go through and discuss an incredible book by the art critic, jerry salts, and it is titled how to be an artist. I know most of you have probably read it or have it on your list or ordered it, or somebody has told you to read it, told you to read it, told you to go on Reddit, or has told you to read the book and I would recommend just go with the book.
Speaker 2:I would say avoid Reddit for this application. Yeah, avoid Reddit.
Speaker 1:In 2018, I came across an article in Vulture by Jerry Saltz and it was titled how to Be an Artist, and at the time it was 33 rules to take you from clueless amateur to generational talent, or at least help you live a life more creatively. And I remember reading that article and it just floored me. I copied every single thing out of the article and I pasted it in my notes and embraced every single word that Jerry wrote. And then, a few years later, jerry adds 19 rules and the book is published, and so I've read it countless times and I teach out of it in my artist mentorship program as well, and this is probably the first book that I recommend to any artist who asks me what books do you suggest to read? I usually go number one, how to Be an Artist by Jerry Saltz, and then it's usually Stephen Pressfield, the War of Art those are kind of the two and then Art and Fear by Ted Orlin and David Bayless, that we've done two episodes or three episodes on before, I can't remember how many.
Speaker 1:Another great book, but for those of you that don't know Jerry salts, he's a Pulitzer prize winning art critic. I'm sure you all know him. If you don't, you've heard of him. He is the senior critic at New York magazine and he is married to, I would say, the greatest living art critic currently. Roberta Smith is married to I would say, the greatest living art critic currently, roberta Smith, and he has three honorary doctoral degrees and has been a visiting critic at SVA, columbia, yale Art Institute, chicago the list goes on and probably the critic who has embraced social media more than any critic there is that exists, using Facebook and Instagram to build a massively engaged audience around numerous things, but most of all, art and his view on things, and he's definitely a valuable resource.
Speaker 1:I've got to hear him at lectures, I've got to meet him in person and I watch and share his lectures and talks regularly. So we are going to do our best, as two artists who have been influenced by his writings and his views on art and becoming an artist, to really just do a big book report, to go through his book section by section and talk about things that have motivated us, inspired us, things we agree with things. We disagree with everything involved, and I'm really excited to go through this. Are you everything involved? And I'm really excited to go through this. Are you excited?
Speaker 2:Nathan.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited Ty.
Speaker 2:Thanks for asking. I'm so excited. This is a running joke with us. At some point we may do an episode where we're like I'm not really, we're kind of blah on this one, but we always come in excited.
Speaker 2:That's kind of the idea, yeah, and as with most books that we talk about and artists that we discuss, the idea is that we're pointing you back towards get this book, read this book, reread this book, you know. So we're going to do our best, take and give some examples, too, about how we've put some of these things into practice, both for ourselves and for you know others that we've had a chance to interact with as well. But long story short, it's a very I mean, it's super digestible, right, it's something that you can pick up and read for a minute or two and, uh, and get a gem for for the day, and and and roll with that. So, yeah, I'm, uh, I'm stoked. The stoke is high. Okay, stoke is high. I like that.
Speaker 1:Are you ready? Should we get rolling? Let's do it. Okay, we're going to start on the introduction here, which doesn't have a number, but it faces an incredible image of the amazing Agnes Martin, and then it kind of goes through Roman numerals that I just learned how to read right before this call. Thanks, nathan, for educating me no problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was shocked and amazed to learn that you did not know how roman numerals worked so nothing I've ever really thought about before in life and I'm ashamed to admit it surely you've encountered them, though, right like you're, just like oh, that's not for me.
Speaker 1:I don't know what that I don't know what to do with those yeah, for the sports people it's like what superbowl was that again can't remember. X, xv1?, vvi.
Speaker 2:Are we buying diamonds now? What's going on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, All right, back to art. Here we go Back to art. We're letting the sports side of us take over again. Okay, so we're going to start in the introduction, and I love how Jerry just starts this off with art is for everyone. He's just saying listen, this is something that's for everybody.
Speaker 1:And he goes down at the end of the page with a few questions that artists may be asking or worrying about and it says can I really be an artist if I didn't go to school, if I work full time, if I'm a parent, if I'm completely terrified? Of course you can. There's no single road to glory. Everyone takes a different path, and that's something that we talk about quite a bit on this podcast. It doesn't matter what your path is, it's whatever's right for you that works. And on the next page he says most of these ideas come from a simple act of looking at art, then looking some more, and from my own motor memories of my years as a fledgling artist, and others come from listening to artists talk about their work and the struggles. I've even lifted some from my wife, roberta Smith, as I said, the greatest living art critic in my eyes. So he's really gathered his intuition, his knowledge, his wisdom, his observations and his discussions with artists over 30, 40 years of time, including his time at Art Institute, Chicago as an artist and on forward and really piece this book together.
Speaker 1:And on the next page, page nine, he kind of says a few things like, deepest of all, what is art anyways? Is it a tool the universe uses to become aware, as the painter Carol Dunham said, a craft-based tool for the study of consciousness? I say yes, and art is all of this and more. And your talent is like a wild animal that must be fed If you want to make great art. It helps to ask yourself what art is.
Speaker 1:And he has a few great little moments on page 16, which is X in Roman numerals there, and he kind of goes through talking about how artists reckon, with an uncanny feeling that by the time they've finished a new work, we've often ended up creating something different from what we've set out to do. This feeling of surprise, of unexpectedness, can delight or disappoint us, but when you're creating, as the painter Bryce Martin observed, you don't know what you're really going to get until you finish a new work. And this book really just goes into. Why are you creating? What are you creating? How are you creating? What is this experience? What are all these fears and questions and confusions and things that kind of continually go through an artist's head as they're thinking about? What am I going to do to make it or get there or create something new or be different?
Speaker 1:And he says on page 12, if you're an aspiring artist, I want you to remember nothing happens if you're not working, but anything can happen when you are, and that's what we're going to talk a lot about here, and you hear us say that all the time, nathan and I both. If you're not working, things aren't happening and the working is in your time. We're not saying you have to be a full-time artist with 24 hours a day in the studio, or Leonardo drew 14 hours in the studio. When you have time to work, make sure you're working very, very vital. I'm going to jump in.
Speaker 2:There's one part that you skipped over. I mean not skipped over, but one part that I want to highlight on Roman numeral 10. Doubt is a sign of faith. It tests and humbles you, allows newness into your life. Best of all, doubt banishes the stifling effect of certainty. Certainty kills curiosity and change. I could talk about that for an entire episode, and actually we have an entire episode on the benefits of embracing doubt and uncertainty. As an artist, but I just love that Certainty kills curiosity and change. Yeah, so I just wanted to. I wanted to touch on that, because that's that's so, so powerful. And he goes on to reinforce that many times in a lot of the passages that we're going to read going forward.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I think with that certainty, like kind of he says give your work at least as much time, thought, energy and imagination as you do other aspects of your daily routine. And it's like with certainty be open, be uncertain about where you're going right, be an explorer, look for things constantly, be driving and finding and we talk about that all the time. Don't sit down and go yes, this is exactly where I am, this is what I'm going to do forever. It's like no. Once you shut that door, you're in trouble.
Speaker 1:And he says here on page 13, I want you to trust yourself, because that's what you're going to need to get through the dark hours of the creative night. I want you to open yourself up to what the philosopher Wittgenstein meant when he said my head often knows nothing about what my hand is writing. In other words, learn how to listen and the work will tell you what it wants. So start your engines, jump in, fill your imagination engaging with reality, push away boundaries and conventions and changing before your eyes. Never feel intimidated. Art is just a container you pour yourself into. Now get to work. And you're going to hear this multiple times. Jerry likes to say get to work, you big babies, quit crying, quit whining, quit complaining, just get to work, people. And so that's what we're going to do now from this point on, is we're going to jump into all of the things that Jerry's going to tell you to do when you're getting to work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the book is broken down into six steps. So yeah, just sections, but step one. You are a total amateur. Things to think about before you even get started. Where do you want to jump into type?
Speaker 1:Let's just jump in. I love this. On page three Don't be embarrassed. Like I get it. He says making art can be humiliating, terrifying. It can leave you feeling exposed and vulnerable, like getting naked in front of another person for the first time. It can reveal things about yourself you might find appalling, weird, boring or stupid. And listen, this is coming from currently the biggest art critic in America. In the US is telling you these things.
Speaker 1:Art doesn't have to make sense. I get that question so many times like but what if I don't? What if it's not understood? What if people can't? Really? No, no, no, art doesn't have to make sense. It's like a bird song. It's made of patterns, inflections, shading and shifts, all things that have emotional and perceptual impact, even if we can never translate their meanings. Every work is a culture scape of you, your memories, the moments you spent working, your hopes, energies, your neuroses, the times you live in, your ambitions. Don't worry about if your art makes sense. The faster your work makes sense, the faster people will lose interest. Let go of being good. Start thinking about creating. Nathan Jerry Saltz just said that. Right, the very first part of the book. How can that not be one of the most encouraging things that any artist could hear.
Speaker 2:It's so powerful to just remember like you don't have to know what you're doing, and resisting the urge to feel as though you do is one of the most powerful things about getting started and staying started and continuing right. You say it all the time this art game is a long, it's a long game, it's a long haul. It's not something that happens overnight, for even the overnight successes who have, in most cases, been toiling away for decades before they, whatever pop right. One of the earlier second sentence, third sentence in that section it can reveal things about yourself that others might find appalling, weird, boring or stupid. You may feel that people will think you're abnormal, dull, untalented, fine, yep. So just acknowledging like that's just part of it.
Speaker 2:That might be one of my, one of my more most reoccurring things that I ended up saying that we ended up talking about on the podcast here, but that's just part of it. This is just part of the deal. The feelings that we have, the self-doubt that we have, the worry that we have. That's just part of it. Right, get to work anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love that he says don't be embarrassed, like you're going to have situations where it's going to be absolutely embarrassing. Yes, you know you're going to have. I've had this. I've had solo shows where I've done a lecture and my mom and dad and their friends showed up and that's it. After an opening that maybe had a hundred people or 250 people or 400 people, and then you have the lecture where you really get to talk about the work and nobody shows up but your parents and their friends.
Speaker 1:The first few times and a few times I didn't just say once the first few times that happened I was so embarrassed, like, almost like it's that doubt why am I doing this If nobody wants to hear me talk? What? What am I doing? And then I kind of went another step, after honestly reading a lot of what Jerry said and some other artists, and went you know what, even if one person showed up or no people showed up, it's a chance for me to practice talking about my work.
Speaker 1:So I have to take all the positives out of a negative situation and rearrange my thought pattern, my thought process, and then push forward from there, because as an artist you're going to the amount of times you're going to have moments of embarrassment or feelings of failure or that's just part of this, right, that's because we can't have. We can't not have those moments because they're growth moments and art is a long growth game. So you're going to look back on the years and go, oh man, I was terrible at that point but I'm glad I stuck with it, because now I am this much stronger than I was four years ago. Think back to your first show all the things you would do different now compared to then. It's night and day Things change.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny. You talk about parents and parents friends being. I was. I'm thinking back even further to before my first show, to when I just first started sharing my work on Instagram, and I vividly remember posting something that I was excited about at the time, and it would be whatever seven likes, one comment from my mom Love you, mom. Yeah, Thanks for that. She's. She's a big fan of the pot as well, but, uh, and I was like all right, you know it, it, it. It took me back to that place of just like being a, being a little kid, and it was just like all right, hey, mom likes what I'm doing, but let's be real, Like mom's going to love pretty much whatever you're doing. So, while that that support means everything, uh, as in terms of critical recognition and praise, doesn't quite carry the same weight as your peers, necessarily, but at least she's always there for support, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Let's move on to the second one. Imagination is more important than knowledge. That's an Einstein quote. Imagination is more important than knowledge. I'm going to skip down, I've got this highlighted. This is William Blake. More important than knowledge I'm going to skip down, I've got this highlighted the imagine, this is William Blake.
Speaker 2:William Blake said the imagination is not a state, it is the human existence itself. So it's not, uh, I just. I love everything about that, right, but imagination is not this sort of place that we visit, it's where we live, it is who we are, it is bait into our very DNA. And that, to me, is such an important reminder that when we start to think about, oh, how do I start to get creative, how do I start to make? It's not a trip we're taking to some unknown land, it's getting back to who we are and who we've always been. And then the next line, ty. Creativity is what you do with your imagination. Write down your flights of fancy, your moments of wonder and fear, your dreams and delusions of grandeur, then put them to work. So that's the, again a reoccurring theme that we will certainly touch on more than once as we go here. But then put them to work. Ideas are just ideas, imagination is just imagination. Creativity in the sort of general sense is a necessary component, but none of it actually comes to life until we get to work.
Speaker 2:There's one thing I wanted to add after you did the intro, which is now past and come gone, but I was thinking about this book. This is what mine looks like. It's very lovely pink, and I don't know if this ever came with a cover or not. Yeah, it did. Okay, yeah, I always just take those off because they're going to kind of get beat up. Anyway, I was talking about this book and I have there it is. There's the proper title. If you go and buy it, that's what it looks like.
Speaker 2:So I was thinking about conversations that I've had about this book and about Jerry. So I'm thinking back to a. I was referencing this book in conversation with another artist, who I will not name, but they said why would I take advice from a non-artist? Why would I take advice from a failed artist? Why would I take advice from somebody who's not actually, you know, making art? And I thought about that for a minute and I thought you know, we've talked about the creative act, rick Rubin's book. We've talked about that one a lot, and so I was thinking about you know, what do?
Speaker 2:What do Jerry and Rick have in common? So they're both non artists who understand artists as a whole Better than I would argue, or as good as anyone anyone because they have so many different data points. They've been around and interacted with so many different artists that they understand the artistic practice. Jerry understands artists so well just because you know like. So you and I, we're experts, hopefully, on our practice, which oftentimes extends to the practice of others and art as a whole. But at the end of the day, I'm not really thinking about or studying what all art. I mean I am, but the number of people, the number of artists that I get a chance to interact with, it's way less, you know, than Rick Rubin being in the studio with, with countless legends, with with Jerry, uh, knowing, interacting with, reviewing work for, you know, for for decades, and so we can learn a ton from other artists.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's exactly what this podcast about. We talk about all the time. We talk about quotes, videos, you know, books, but each one is just, is just one Right, and so what Jerry's done is consolidated his experience and his observations and distilled it down into sort of the common denominators that apply to to all of us, which is what I love about this book and that was my, you know, one of those things where, like you think about a response after the fact, I think my response in the moment was like all right, well, you know, cool, no worries, it's not, it's not for you, not for you. But you know, having thought more about it, that, I think, is what is what is so magical about how Jerry puts these things into practice, is that it is. It's so many different experiences and observations and studying, you know, what art is and how it's made. Well, listen.
Speaker 1:If you want to be in the art world, you better be learning from every data point that exists. Art is one thing, the art world is another thing. The art world has artists, gallery owners, art dealers, art critics, curators, collectors right, there's like an entire world that exists in that ecosystem. Yeah, and if you're not learning from all of those things, right, you're going to miss something somewhere down the road. And everybody within that is as valuable as everything else, because the artist doesn't exist without them. They don't exist without the artist. So you have so many different, flowing and concurrent ideas and thoughts and processes wrapped up in all that. The artist needs the critic, the critic needs the artist, the dealer needs the artist, the artist needs the dealer, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1:But if you're not learning from each person's viewpoints, you're really dumbing down your growth in the long term. So anybody that says, well, what I want to listen to an art critic, it's like, well, you better be listening. I'm not saying you have to take everything as fact. And even the best art critics like Jerry would say what do I know? I'm just a dumb New York guy trying to write what I think and most of the time I'm just an idiot. He says that all the time. It's like no, but you need to listen. He needed to take in what is fact and what could be truth and what could be impacted into your work, and then throw the rest out. That's fine. Throw the rest out, that's fine. Yep, that's right. But it's like anything in the world If you're not learning from every viewpoint, how are you growing as a human being? You're only growing so far.
Speaker 2:Yep, you know that's a whole nother podcast, maybe, probably but this is what we do Make a note of this future episode. What's the?
Speaker 1:next thing that you had underlined. Moving on to page seven, number three is that great quote by Louise Bourgeois that we talked about in our Louise Bourgeois episode. Tell your own story and you will be interesting. I mean, I love that Jerry's highlighting that and he says Amen, louise.
Speaker 1:Don't be reined in by other people's definitions of skill or beauty or be cramped by what is supposedly high or low art. Don't stay in your own lane. Supposedly high or low art. Don't stay in your own lane. Remember that just because you're telling your own story, you're not automatically entitled to applause. You have to earn the audience and don't expect to accomplish that with a single defining project. Hear that again. Everybody Don't expect to accomplish applause with that single defining project.
Speaker 1:Artists can't capture everything about themselves in a single work or reflect every side of themselves in every new work. You have to be a little detached from your art enough to see what you're doing clearly, to witness it and follow it. Take baby steps and take pleasure in those baby steps. Even when you're making it up, make it your own. That's kind of what we just talked about. On the other side too, of like you're going to have failures, you're going to have embarrassments, you're going to have all these things that don't work, baby steps. It's taking time to get to that point and I love that it be detached a little bit, be a little removed from what you're making so that you have room to listen, to take in critique, to take in negative things and positive things, and then gather them together and then sit back and really look at those things when they come from the audience. When you get there, that's a great page.
Speaker 2:That line, don't expect to accomplish that with a single defining project. It's perfect that Louise is the quote that he has a section off with right, Because, as we talked about extensively in our in our Louise episode, I mean decades, decades and decades of of work, stacks and stacks of of of work that she made before she got anything resembling proper recognition for the work that she was doing, Right. Imagine if she, or any artist, uh, on one of the greats of history, had just said this is it, and I'm just going to wait until this, this defining project gets recognized. It never would have happened like ever.
Speaker 1:No, not.
Speaker 1:I've had projects, I've had bodies of work that I've been so ingrained in and like this is it. And then nothing, right, nothing happens with it. It's just all in storage now and it's just sitting there and none of it moved, haven't sold any of it. And man, I was so confident in that moment in it. You know, maybe I was too attached in the moment to really see some things, I don't know, but I stayed the course and it took me to new things, took me to new ideas. If I hadn't stayed the course with that project and been so deflated by the fact that nothing happened, it would have taken me even longer to get to the next step, yep, which I'm going to skip. Do you have anything in page four? I'm going to skip to page five, if not page eight. There, number four, number four.
Speaker 2:I do actually go for it. Go so. Number four recognize the otherness of art. I'm just going to skip to the bottom. This Bob Dylan quote is just perfect. It's like a ghost is writing, except the ghost picked me to write the song. Don't let this Jerry's words now, don't let this creep you out. Instead, learn to trust it. And this goes back again, as many of the things we're going to talk about today goes back to something that we've discussed a lot. But it's trusting, it's listening, it's being that vessel.
Speaker 1:I think, nathan, that really moves into section five here, where art is not about understanding or mastery, being in that state of flow, that state of just letting whatever just take you, rather than being so hyper-focused on something. I love that he says it's about doing an experience. No one asks what Mozart or Matisse means, or an Indian Raga, or a little tripping dance of Fred Astaire or Ginger Rogers cheek to cheek and top hat. Forget about making things to be understood. I don't know what ABBA's music means, but I love it.
Speaker 1:Oscar Wilde said the moment you think you understand a great work of art, it's dead for you. Wow, imagination is your creed, sentimentality and the lack of feeling your foes. All art comes from love, love of doing something. And the very last sentence he says even if we're in agony while working, there's still some kind of love that drives us on against the current. And I tell my artists that have been in my program I've said this to numerous of them when we do our one-on-ones and we're talking just about their work and our work Whenever they're frustrated, I always bring that up, don't you still love that?
Speaker 1:You have the ability to be frustrated about making art. Yeah, you have the ability to go into a space and make something that nobody's made before, with skills that you have, with technique that you have, and you're failing and you're frustrated and it's not working. But how amazing is it that you have the ability to do that? Yeah, and the reason you're doing it is because you love it so much. So how can we maintain at least the essence of that feeling more regularly? That's a question that I ask them quite a bit.
Speaker 2:It's a hundred percent, it's. It's embracing the mystery, right, it's, it's, it's just leaning into. I don't know, but I might, I might get closer. Yeah, I don't know now, I may not know ever, but it's not about mastery, it's about doing an experience, and so it's really leaning into.
Speaker 2:I think that that just that excitement of discovery, you know, like you said, just the idea that I don't know what you're going to do after this I'm going to get back there and get after it Same and the fact that something that we touch today, everything we touch today, will be hopefully something that's never been made before Never Doesn't mean it's going to be good, doesn't mean it's going to be recognized, doesn't mean any of those things, but it's never been made before, and that is just, is just so, so exciting. And so, you know talk back to that last sentence even if we're in agony while working, it's still some kind of love that drives us on against the current, and so to me, that's a really important reminder of the value of figuring out how we can I think I've used this example in a previous episode, but how we can run on multiple sources. Yeah, in other words, it's not so much. I had to learn this early on. It's not so much a matter of getting into a certain state of, oh, I have to be feeling a certain way to create or to make good work. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:I have to be present to what I'm experiencing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling and figure out how to just channel whatever that is into whatever I'm doing. Because what that means is that I've taken myself from, we've taken ourselves from a place of, oh, I've got to be in a certain state, I've got to have these certain conditions present to be able to work, and we're taking ourselves revolving to a place of when it's time to work, we just go to work and whatever we're, whatever we've got, whatever we're experiencing is available to us to be, to be challenged, even when it is painful, even when, whether, whether, whether the discomfort or pain or whatever is something that we had, you know, hanging over us or or brewing inside of us when we walked in the door, or, in many cases, if it's a product of things not working or what isn't going well in the studio. It's all, it's all. Fuel, right, it's.
Speaker 2:How can, how can I run on multiple fuel sources? You know, if I'm only, if I'm strictly a whatever vegetarian or vegan or carnivore, or whatever benefits you may find from what you choose to eat or not eat, but from a survival standpoint, the best survival strategy is being able to use whatever you can get your hands on as a fuel source. If this is edible and if it's going to provide me energy, I can consume it, or I can, in this case, acknowledge what's there, embrace it and let it flow out of me, as opposed to only being able to run on one specific fuel source.
Speaker 1:And one way to do that. As we move into number six here, embrace genre and he kind of gives a little definition here of genre is a major factor in the way we think about art. The portrait is a genre, and so there's still lifes, landscapes, animal painting, history painting, comedy and tragedy are also genres. So are sonnets, science fiction, pop, hip-hop. It possesses its own formal logic, tropes and principles. They create useful commonalities of response and place your work in the flow of history. Mary Wollstonecraft, shelley, invented the modern gothic in a fever dream of writing that became Frankenstein, and horror writers have been revisiting this story of the doctor and his lonely monster ever since. What is the difference between genre and style? Style is the unstable essence that an artist brings to genre. What ensures that no two crucifixions say look the same.
Speaker 1:Oscar Wilde said that style is what makes us believe in a thing, and I love how he says Dolly Parton's Jolene is a classic country story song, but the vulnerability of her performance is what makes you die inside when you hear it. A fresh style breathes life into genre. We're all inspired by some genre of art, all of us. There's something we love, whether it's neo-expressionism, abstract expressionism, cubism, portraiture, landscape painting, installation sculpture, abstract sculpture, portraits I mean all of these things are genre and so we're drawn to it and so our work brings out these ideas of others that have been done before, that have gone before. But our job is to take a fresh style and breathe life into that genre that we're inspired by.
Speaker 1:And I love how he said embrace it, embrace the genre, but then breathe new life into it, the genre, but then breathe new life into it. I'm just going to skip to section seven here and read the last sentence real quick, because I think it kind of follows up well and he says question your assumptions, push back on them, play around with them. Any convention can be turned into a great tool, hijacked in service of your own vision. And I kind of love how he's piggybacking that on genre, because you're working within genres that have inspired you or you like, or artists that have kind of influenced you, and he's like hijack those things in service of your own vision. Don't hijack it in service of de kooning's vision or in lee krasner's vision. Hijack things that they've done into ty nathan clark's vision or Nathan Turborg's vision.
Speaker 2:That relates really well to our episode on. What was the title of that episode? Steal copy, yeah. Steal copy whatever, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Those words are definitely in the title, which is just the benefit of stealing around and really diversifying our influence as much as possible. And yeah, question the assumptions, push back, play around with them. Earlier in that section I had highlighted convention can be good or bad. Used consciously and inventively, it can be beautiful. So it's just being intentional about the ways that we embrace convention and, from there, the ways that we choose to deviate. That's where things get interesting.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's part eight and nine cast your nets into the waters and develop forms of practice. So he's piggybacking those things and saying but listen, you're a diver, you're a collector, you're a shell hunter looking for inspirations. Go everywhere, Look at everything, Find anything you can Materials, meanings, metaphors Just gather, gather, gather, gather, gather. And then, once you gather all those things in, once you've learned how to look and then to describe what you're doing now draw, now paint, now create, right those forms of practice. So cast those nets as wide as possible genre, material, technique, all those things. And as you start to gather, now you start to develop the form of your practice.
Speaker 2:A pattern recognition machine and code breaker. Probing for ideas Even if you don't know what you're hoping to find. Care, probing for ideas even if you don't know what you're hoping to find. Never stop throwing your nets into those fundamental waters, throwing them all. Haul them back in again, even when they're empty. That frantic energy, that perverse need to keep looking till you can't imagine finding more, can keep you receptive to new metaphors, materials and meaning.
Speaker 2:I'm going to share a story I'm probably going to reference this conversation I had with a good friend of mine, a brother in recovery who had mentioned to me that he had some ideas and he wanted to start making work of his own. And he came in. We did a studio visit earlier this week and we had a great conversation and one of the things we talked about was this One of the things I shared with him was you know, really start to fine tune your antenna, and and by fine tune I mean just turn it on. You know, just start looking at everything, start interpreting every experience through the lens of what could I do with this, whether that be materials, experiences, ideas, inspirations. You know all of the above. Materials, experiences, ideas, inspirations. You know all of the above and it was one of the coolest things. He texted me later that day a picture of something that he was really excited about, something that he had noticed, you know, while he was out for a walk, and I was like, yeah, that's. Yeah, man, that's it. You're looking now, and because you're looking, you're going to start seeing. But that's it. That's what now, and because you're looking, you're going to start seeing. Yep, but that's it. That's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:We throw the nets in the waters. We think there's fish in there, we hope there are. Back to our David Lynch episode catching the big fish. Just that idea of there's fish in those waters. And the deeper we go, the bigger the fish are. But nothing comes in the boat If we don't cast those nets into the water and continue to cast those nets continuously, over and over, even when they come back empty, the first hundred hundred tries hey, you know, find a new spot. Keep throwing that net out there, because inevitably they will come back. They will come back with something and, uh, yeah, it's just, it's repetition always wins. It's being in the game of looking and seeing and absorbing as we go, because, whether we're conscious of it or not, that's going to make an impact. It's going to affect what we do in a positive way.
Speaker 1:And then get lost. And then just get lost in it all, which is section 10. And he says predictability is good for computers but it's death for artists. That's pretty good. Don't get caught in a cul-de-sac, don't get stuck in one little area. Avoid lingering on the well-worn path. You don't want to be a minor example of someone else's major style or idea. It's far better to let yourself get lost than to never stray at all. Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this goes back to that hiking metaphor that I love to use. It's just the way that it makes sense in my mind. But it's you know, we start off on the interstate and then we get off on some side roads and we pull into, you know, whatever the state park, the national park, the, anywhere where there's trails. We look at the map, we decide where we want to start, but then it's a matter Okay. So as we go the, the, the path, the route, the trail gets less and less worn, which means there have been fewer footsteps there, and that's when it's time to go explore. That's when it's time to get off the path and see what else is there. That's where the gems are, that's where, even if it is I think about this all the time it's like all right, there's there, looks like there might be something interesting over there.
Speaker 2:There's not a path, but I know where the path is so I can go explore. We can go see what's what's over that next crest, what's what's there. It may or may not be the thing that we thought was going to be there. Hopefully it's not right. I mean, that's what discovery is all about, but in terms of getting lost, the, the well-worn trail is always there. So think about our practice. You know we can deviate, we can stray, and we should consistently be doing that, trying new things, you know, following those little veins, those little threads that that pull us off of what we may have thought we were doing initially, but we always know where the, where the trail is right. Hey, okay, I took a left off the path and got off, got off into the, into the wilderness. Well, that means I just need to keep going right until I hit the path again and then I can write so whenever truly lost is right. It's kind of the point, you know, when he says there's no road map for art.
Speaker 1:I tell artists I'm like be encouraged. Yeah, there's no road map for art. You can make whatever you want to make. You can use whatever you want to use. You can make whatever you want to make. You can use whatever you want to use. You can do whatever you want to do. There's artists and major museums that are doing things that are unconventional.
Speaker 2:They got lost. The goal is to create a practice that allows a constant recalibration between your imagination and the world around you. Let's go.
Speaker 1:Let's go. I mean I'm getting lost right now. I'm doing stuff that. There's things I did yesterday. I'm like that's really cheesy. Yeah, don't know if I like that Shoot, that's all glued on and I just wasted all that material. But then I went. Well, I know from my past that by working through these things and getting completely lost in this, you know I'm going to get somewhere. I mean I'm going to get somewhere.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm literally right now, I'm making these bundles of yarn scraps and I'm trying and I feel like I need to use them in the work. So I'm literally like figuring out ways with all the scraps of my yarn that I'm experimenting with, like putting it back into the work, and I'm so lost right now. I'm so lost in it, but I know that it's going to get me somewhere. I'm gathering, gathering, gathering, trying, experimenting, and I know, I know, in my lostness I'm going to find something.
Speaker 2:I know it. I felt that, I felt that I feel like I need to use them. Yeah, yeah, you do, I do, I know, and even if that net comes back empty, it's never really empty. I mean, we'll get into that in a future section that I'm excited to talk about, but there's no wasted days, but it's all part of it. It's all part of it and it's listening to that voice, that urge, that compulsion I feel like I need. Then you do Right, even if it does pull you off of the thing that maybe was going to get work completed sooner or get you that feeling of all right, this one's done. That's not the game I'm playing. It's not the game you're playing, you know. I mean, obviously we, we, we are finishing work and being intentional about, but it's always continuing to to get lost. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Number 11, work, work, work. The artist sister, mary Carita Kent, said the only rule is work. If you work, it will lead to something. It's the people who do all the work all the time who eventually catch on to things. I mean that's it right? Yes, it's, it's that's. You know. Getting getting lost is not, you know, taking one step out of the, out of the vehicle when we get to the trail and saying, oh where am I? No, no, no. There's a lot of steps involved. There's a lot of, there's a lot of movement, a lot of work, a lot of momentum that needs to be generated to get from here to wherever we may end up to wherever we may end up. But I absolutely, I absolutely love that. I mean, that's, it's all right there. It's the people who do all the work all the time who eventually catch on to things.
Speaker 1:Yep, when this? I love this because for two reasons. Number one in art school we watched a lot of sister Mary created Kent videos when I was in art school, so she was somebody that we were constantly watching in school. So, number one I was like oh yeah her. Oh my gosh, it's been forever since when I read about this little quote. But I figured this out early myself, before I read this. And then I read it and it was like moved into that foundation level, right Of your personal discipline and I went yeah, because the more that I've been working once I went full-time as an artist, the more I was working, the more I was catching on to things regularly.
Speaker 1:And unfortunately I'm not trying to point fingers at people who can't be full-time, because if you're an artist, you're doing something else. You and I both have side hustles with our practice. Our practice is number one, but we have side hustles that we're bringing in money as patronage to support our families and support our practice and things like that. But we do get to spend more time than most artists in our studio and I'm not saying this in a negative way to those that can't, but I am telling you, the more you work, the more time you put in, the quicker you will arrive than those who don't. It's a known fact. The more time you're able to put into making, the faster Now we're talking fast and slow terms the faster you will arrive at things than those who are not putting in the time and not working. You will, because it is about the work. It really is.
Speaker 1:And I love how he says here too, just work and keep working. That's the method. That's the method that works. There's no shortcuts here. The method that works is just work and keep working. And I love a little bit down further. He says it doesn't matter how scared.
Speaker 2:You are, everyone's scared, so get to work. Everybody's scared. Find that in the moment. Or are you interested in accelerating your learning curve and getting as close as possible to your voice and your work as quickly as possible? Not that the two are mutually exclusive, but they kind of are.
Speaker 2:I'll use an example. So when I was talking to the friend that I mentioned earlier, he said, hey, I've got some ideas of things I want to, I want to do, but I, you know he was really trying to, and, and he was really trying to conceptualize, like, what the work was going to look like and where it was going to to go. Once he got to, you know that that place or that destination, and what I was trying to share with him was that it's much more about how much can you experiment? How many nets can you cast out? How, how lost can you get early on to even get a foothold somewhere? In other words, you just need to know where you're going to start and, and again, whether you've got, you know, 60 hours a week or 60 minutes on a weekend, how are you going to use that valuable time, however much time that is to create, and what's the focus going to be. Do you agree with that? Am I off there?
Speaker 1:No, I think no.
Speaker 2:I'm totally right on, but I just want to hear you.
Speaker 1:No, I think you're right on with that and that's really everything that Jerry's saying. You know, and it's like I do love that you're sharing the story, cause this really fits into number 12. Um, start now, because Joss, coming to these ideas now and saying, hey, I think I really want to do these things, and then you, everybody's scared. There's not one single person that's not scared. That's an artist and it's like. But that being scared can stop us from really starting when we feel like we want to do something.
Speaker 2:Before you move on, that last quote. I've got to read that, so this is an Anne Lamott quote. Uh, but in chair, start each day anywhere, let yourself do it badly. Just take it one passage at a time. Get butt back in chair, yep, so that was really what I was going for with Joss, was, you know, take, take the time that you need to, like, figure out where you want to start, what materials you want. I mean there, there is a obviously some certain uh, a level of logistical planning that's required to even get going, but get into it as soon as you can. In other words, don't spend all this time planning and conceptualizing what you might do, just start doing. That's the point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and this is key too, because I love that he says here, so many people waste too much time worrying that it's too late to start. Or, like you said, gathering, gathering, gathering for so long, and that gathering just becomes, you know, a crutch to actually starting Right, the idea that conceptual is conceptualization of oh, I'm not ready, I need to get any more, I need more, I'm not ready, I'm not ready, and then pretty soon, 10 years later, you're still not ready. You know and I love he gives a couple examples here that a lot of great artists and writers and actors started late. Henry Rousseau didn't begin painting until his forties. Julia Margaret Cameron didn't become a photographer until she was 48. One of America's greatest so-called outsider artists, bill Traylor, a former slave, didn't start making art until he was 85. And it's like start anytime, it doesn't matter. Like the art world doesn't see age, it sees work, sees the art, it sees the work. And I'm going to give an example here and throw one of our friends out to the wolves here.
Speaker 1:But one of my former mentees, moksananda, who's a dear friend of ours now, was one of the most fearful artists I've had in the program and he started. He's made art for a long time, but he didn't really get serious until he retired in his 60s and he was constantly so frightened of how much time do I have left to actually do this? Is it worth it to really go for it? I don't know how much longer I have left on this earth as I'm getting older. I have less time than I've lived. And is it worth it? Should I do this?
Speaker 1:And really it's been so beautiful to watch that fear transform into confidence to where he's had, I think, four or five solo shows since he was in my program three years ago I think it was three, three and a half years ago four or five solo shows, multiple group shows, and his work is just I you, I know you would agree it's absolutely stunning, like masterfully stunning, and he had the skills. He had the skills. He's a painterly painter, but he hadn't arrived at who he is yet in his work and there was so much fear. There's like do I? It's like no, start, just go now. And then he put in the work and the work. And this is where and and and no one mo.
Speaker 2:And then he put in the work and the work. And this is where, and, and, and no one mocks that we were in the same mentorship class as well. So so I was, I was along for the ride, you know for a lot of that, and and I think he's so cerebral, he's so thoughtful and intentional. I think that now that he's, now that he's in a place where he's there, he's doing it, he's applying all of those qualities as well. But there is a time where over-intellectualizing, over-planning, over-considering can absolutely be a detriment. Yep, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, if you're thinking it, if you've got it, if you're planning to go somewhere, start right now.
Speaker 2:Start now Get rolling. Well, jerry's story is fantastic too, so started as tried to make it as an art. It's a very abbreviated version. Feel free to fill in any blanks that you're aware of, but the quick version is loved, art pursued art, tried to make it, had a little bit of momentum and lost. It stopped, became an over the road truck driver for for for quite some time and, uh, didn't really start writing and doing what he's met was meant to do until he was 40. Yeah, and he writes.
Speaker 2:So at 40, I finally got serious living proof that it's never too late and I love that. I love that about a story, you know, because that's not unlike mine. I didn't really get started until I was about that age as well, and I had a lot of those same concerns, those same fears. Yeah, what if my best years, what if the best art making years that might have been, are behind me? And I think I've talked about this before, but I think one of the advantages to starting late.
Speaker 2:So if this point, the way that you've grown and evolved as a human being, the experiences that you've had, they definitely do lend themselves to, once you get momentum, really really finding your stride, I would argue like I can only speak from personal experience, but I, but I'm certain that let's say that I had taken the more whatever traditional direct route, gone to art school and started, you know, making work in my whatever full-time post art school in my, in my twenties.
Speaker 2:There's no way of knowing, obviously, but I wouldn't have had that extra two decades worth of, you know, knowing myself better, understanding my idea of what I might want to communicate far, far better than I did, you know, much, much later in life when I ultimately started. So there's no, there's no, there's no roadmap right, there's no perfect path, there's nothing right or wrong about anything, but if you're in a spot where you're at an age, you're at a place in life where, oh, maybe it's passed me by, no, it hasn't. And the fact that you have done what you've done, experience what you've experienced up to this point, really is an advantage much more than a disadvantage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know another story from another um, former mentee in my program, alison Hudson, another dear friend of both of ours. She has that story too. She went to art school, she got an MFA and then, you know, she ended up getting married, had kids and went into, became a decorated baker and cake designer. Um, it was very well known. I don't know if you know this story about Allison. Yeah, she was a bad-ass cake designer and decorator but all this time, right, art's just lingering, like you know the things in her head, all this stuff. And then finally, years later, after the kids are out, she gets back into sculpting and gets back into making art.
Speaker 1:And I think she just she just had was in a group show at the Delaware contemporary museum of art just recently opened last weekend, and the work was mind blowing, her work.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've been able to watch her evolve and develop over the years and I always tell artists I don't think I get any more joy in life than seeing artists whose story I'm a part of really just bloom in their work and get shows and grow to places that I I imagine they could be and really because they got to work and but I think all of that time and experience of life that had major ups and major downs for her filled in when she started really getting to work and going for it and starting. I think all of those things just compartmentalize and came into the work and became a motivating factor and increase that imagination and increase that story and that voice and mind blowing. We'll put a few pictures of Allison's work up as we're talking about this and Moxa and the other artists we've talked about. So if you watch us on video you'll be able to see some of the work that we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Which, if you're only listening, find us on YouTube If you want to see our mugs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, YouTube and Spotify.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the oh yeah, that's right, spotify does a video as well, but Ty, editor, tied as a phenomenal job of adding in a lot of really good people of the artists we're talking about and, yeah, check it out. Well, ty, that sounds like a pretty good place to land the plane. For part one, we are just approaching step two in the book. So with that, join us for part two of the how to Be an Artist book series written by Jerry Saltz. Thanks for joining us today and catch up with us for part two in our next episode. Get to work, you big babies. Get to work, you big babies. Get to work, you big babies.
Podcasts we love
Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.
Talk Art
Russell Tovey and Robert Diament
Chatabix
Keep It Light Media / Big Oval Plate
Makers & Mystics
Stephen Roach
The Week in Art
The Art Newspaper
The Art Angle
Artnet News