Just Make Art
A conversation about making art and the artist's journey with Ty Nathan Clark and Nathan Terborg, two artists trying to navigate the art world, just like you.
In each episode, the duo chooses a quote from a known artist and uses it as a springboard for discussion.
Through their conversations, Ty and Nathan explore the deeper meaning of the quote and how it can be applied to the artists studio practice. They share their own personal stories and struggles as artists, and offer practical advice and tips for overcoming obstacles and achieving artistic success.
Whether you're a seasoned artist or just starting out, "Just Make Art" provides valuable insights and inspiration to help you navigate the creative process and bring your artistic vision to life. With their engaging and conversational style, Ty and Nathan create a welcoming space for listeners to explore their own artistic passions and learn from two artists working hard to navigate the art world.
Just Make Art
Part 4. Breaking down: How to Be An Artist by Jerry Saltz.
What separates artists who give up from those who thrive despite rejection? In this fourth installment exploring Jerry Saltz's "How to Be an Artist," Ty and Nathan tackle the emotional armor required to navigate the art world's toughest challenges.
When a Pulitzer Prize-winning critic featured Nathan's early work as an example of what not to do, he was devastated. "I was mourning the loss of an art career that didn't even exist," he confesses. This vulnerable moment becomes a masterclass in transforming criticism into creative fuel—a skill every artist must develop.
The conversation weaves through the phases of artistic development: wanting it, doing it, and living it. They explore how Instagram has weaponized envy, why self-imposed deadlines create surprising breakthroughs, and the myth of overnight success that derails so many promising careers. "Art gives up its secrets very slowly," they remind us, encouraging patience and persistence.
Perhaps most powerful is their discussion of "radical vulnerability"—following your work into uncomfortable psychological territory that reveals your truest voice. As Ty shares stories of gallery disasters and damaged artwork, a portrait emerges of the resilience required to survive the inevitable setbacks of creative life.
The episode concludes with Jerry's most memorable advice: after the demons of doubt have spoken, simply tell yourself "I'm a fucking genius" and get back to work. It's strategic delusion as artistic superpower—and it just might be the difference between giving up and breaking through.
Send us a message - we would love to hear from you!
Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg
Watch the Video Episode on Youtube or Spotify,
Hey, nathan, you ready to survive the art world?
Speaker 2:I'd like to think I'm doing okay so far. Are you doing okay? I mean, if survival is the standard, then yes, we have lived to fight another day.
Speaker 1:Well, I've got some psychic strategies for dealing with the ugliness.
Speaker 2:I can't wait, yeah, I cannot wait.
Speaker 1:So this is step five. This is the beginning of our fourth episode on Jerry Saltz's wonderful book how to Be an Artist, and we are going to jump right into something that I think you and I have in common and that is we want it, we really want it, and Jerry says here number 49, you have to want it To be an artist. Julian Lethbridge has said it helps to be persistent, obstinate and determined. These are the things that enable an artist not to banish but to outwit the doubts that will come from many directions. Doubts every direction.
Speaker 1:Every one of you out there listening, I know, knows that the doubts come in from everywhere and a little bit lower. It says wanting it is what allows us to place ourselves again in the aesthetic lattices, feeling for ideas, inspirations and dreamscapes and other thermal updrafts that will flow through fear and doubt. Persistence, determination and obstinacy give us the energy. They'll get you through hell, taking you from wanting it to doing it, to living it. I know every one of those feelings, I know wanting it, I know the doing it and I now am fortunate enough to say that I'm living it.
Speaker 2:Can you? I would love to hear you talk about all three of those phases and if you can think of approximately, maybe even a specific moment of when those three things, those three distinct phases, became true for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean wanting it. I've always wanted it. I grew up around it, I grew up in it. I saw a lot of art. Growing up, I read about art. I've always drawing, always making art, always trying to progress to something.
Speaker 1:Didn't know what that meant, had no idea what that meant as a kid or a young teen or a young adult even and I think it really was art school made me start to want it even more. Like being in that arena with a bunch of other artists who kind of had that same mindset, like we all want this, we're all going for this, this is what we want to do. This is kind of our dream, you know, and we're dreaming of Warhol and Basquiat and all these artists that we're learning about in the, you know, mid, late 90s in school and even Julian Schnabel's were fresh in our heads but may have already been big, but in our heads and then LA artists that were doing things at that time in the nineties and just all of a sudden starting to have that feeling. But then, once school's out and we were like now what? I was still making stuff, but then you have to kind of get a life. A little bit it seems like cause you don't really know what to do. So you're working and you're grinding and you're doing all those things and I'd say it was probably gosh, five or six years after I was married.
Speaker 1:So I said in 2006, 2007, met a group of dudes who were working for me at my skate shop in the North Dallas area and they were in art school at UNT. My buddy, sean Ellis, was in art school and introduced me to all his buddies in the program there in drawing and painting, even though I was older than them. I started hanging out with these artists and they were in one of the best art schools in the nation and we started hanging out and doing our own art shows. So then all of a sudden we were doing it like meeting up at each other at my garage really, which was 5d the number on the little garage outside was called 5d, so we named ourselves 5d artists and there were five of us and so we started doing our own little shows and so we were like we were doing it, but still distractions, life, all these things around us. They start graduating, moving on to grad school and other things.
Speaker 1:Then we're separated, then you're kind of alone again and then it took a while. I was in the entrepreneur world startups, fashion line, outdoor brands, doing all these things. Then when I finally left I guess it would have been 12 years ago, 14 years ago now when I finally left that world I went 100% in. But just that whole process does have that evolution, like Jerry says here, of that wanting it, doing it and living it. And I would say none of those are a smooth transition, because I know a lot of artists that are doing it, living it, back to wanting it, then living it. You kind of jump through these phases and these hoops and this art life as well.
Speaker 2:Well, it's one of the things we talk about a lot. I know we've covered this in previous parts of this series in the book, because Jerry addresses it in different ways more than once but I think that that's really an interesting thing to think about is just the wanting it and doing it. That transition, specifically, and the one that you just spoke to, I think, is really very relevant. It's very important for us to really think about. It's one thing to want something, anything we're talking about art specifically but this applies, of course, to anything that we may have a strong desire to have in our life to do, to be, to achieve, whatever it might be, but it's the doing it, and doing it consistently.
Speaker 2:That, and only that, will actually lead to any version of actually living, living it Right. And so that's the, that's the big thing and it's a it's a critical question. I think we probably, I think, closed a part three with a version of this conversation around like, okay, if you really want it, then there's a lot of action required, a lot of prioritization around like, all right, am I building? If I want to live it, I have to build a life around being able to do it consistently, whether I feel like it or not, whether I'm getting positive reinforcement from or any version of external validation, that I may or may not be on the right track, it's consistently you know, doing it and taking that want into action where the magic really happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't think I was thinking about this a while back. I don't think that there's anything job wise or career wise. Let say career-wise, because art's a job, that's not a job and it's really a career. That's not a career, but it's the one thing that you don't ever retire from Right. I don't know if there's anything else out there that exists the way that art does.
Speaker 1:I think I was telling you or somebody that my wife and I had hired a financial advisor a while back a new financial advisor and we're having the conversation with him and he was saying well, what age do you want to retire? And we were talking about, because we both work for ourselves, we have to find a way to save right For when we're older, and so, because we don't have your 401ks and the traditional retirement plans, because we work for ourselves, we're trying to figure out these ways to save well and invest well for our future. And he said when do you want to retire? And I said I'm not going to retire and he goes no, but let's pick an age like 65, when you're done doing artists.
Speaker 1:And no, I don't think you understand. Like I'm going to be 90 in a wheelchair, you know, like Matisse in my bed with a long stick with pastels making art. And he's like no, but when do you want to like really be done? And I was like no, I don't want to be done. My goal is to make art until the day I die, right? So there's this weird I don't know what this thing about art that it's like you should always be wanting it now doing it and living it. We're going to, they're going to change and flux, but I don't think wanting it ever disappears. I even think, for the greatest artists in history, what propelled them to keep going when they hit this certain peak, so to say, is that they still wanted it and they were willing and we'll read about some of those artists in a minute and they were willing to go the extra mile to change and evolve and develop, and that caused them to keep wanting and wanting and wanting it.
Speaker 2:And develop and that caused them to keep wanting and wanting and wanting it. And what a gift I mean what? What a gift it is to be able to, to be doing something that we have no desire to stop, like we're I. I'm laughing at that conversation because I can imagine how that, how that probably went, but it's like no, no, no, you don't understand. I'm doing the thing, like I'm doing the thing that I would want to do if I wasn't already doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he still didn't get it at the end he still would come back to it and go. But what about like no, no no dude just hear what I'm saying and just move on. Don't keep coming back to it.
Speaker 2:But it really is. It's interesting, it really is a sort of longevity hack in a way, when you think about the age that a lot of working artists achieve, you know how, how late in life, I mean a lot of variables go into that as far as you know lifestyle and how one treats one's body in time and the rest of it. But you know, I think it's uh, I mean time and the rest of it. But you know, I think it's uh, I mean there.
Speaker 2:There's so many examples of people who retire and the decline begins almost immediately because they've lost their sense of purpose, especially when somebody retires and they don't have some you know things in their life that they're super passionate about continuing to do Right, it's a, it's purpose, it's a, it's a reason to get up in the morning and keep showing up and have a leaning into whatever vitality.
Speaker 2:You know we, we have left, but we get so much it's so energizing. We get so much energy and we get so much life from what we pour into our work that I think that I will live longer because of this than I would have if I was on a more traditional path where I had an answer for the financial planner to say oh, soon are the better, 65 are the latest, whatever the number is, but it is. If you look at it purely from a financial perspective, that's the hey. Most people are doing the thing that they're doing. You know they're. They're trading time for money to get to a point where they no longer have to do that. That's not. That's not the game that we're playing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and I generalized what I do as an artist, but most of the arts, about 90% of the arts, fall into that category right Writer, photographer, filmmaker, actor, actress, like the arts is just a very special place where you can continue, like you said, to have that mental aptitude of really wanting it and really wanting to grow and continue with a passion for a very, very long time.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think visual arts have a very particular place in that creative realm. Yeah, I remember talking to a good friend of mine, andrew, who works on Broadway. We had a good conversation when we were out there in New York and he said I'm so jealous of you being able to practice your craft and do what you love to do without any need for approval, and do what you love to do without any need for approval. Or he's like I have to, I have to get, I have to audition and get roles. I then have to. I mean then, basically, at the whim of how the show does, how long it's going to run, like what that opportunity is actually going to look like.
Speaker 2:We don't have any of that. I mean that's not. I shouldn't say any of that. I mean that's not, I shouldn't say any of that. Certainly there's some of that, but in terms of like, just the pure ability to continue doing what we love to do, making what we feel called to make and putting out into the world. There are no external gates that are required to continue doing that. And, man, what a, what a gift, what a gift Big gift.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, moving on. Ooh, this one's a good one. I think this one is so important for today Making an enemy out of envy. Envy looks at others but blinds you and it will eat you alive as an artist. Instagram I can't tell you how many artists I have talked to that get absolutely eaten alive by envy because of Instagram. It distracts the mind, it leaves less room for development.
Speaker 1:Most important, for honest self-criticism. And I love how he says in the second paragraph don't let jealousy define you, make you sour, bitter, unloving or mean. So all those other bad artists are getting shows and you're not. So they're getting the articles, the money and the love. So all those other bad artists are getting shows and you're not. So they're getting the articles, the money and the love. So they went to better schools, married someone rich, have thinner ankles, they're better looking, more social.
Speaker 1:It's tough. We all do the best we can, but poor me, can't make your work better. I've got like a bridesmaids moment in my head. Poor me. She's on the airplane, one of my favorite scenes. Can't make you work better and you're out of the game if you don't show up. So grow a backbone and get back to work.
Speaker 1:Like, envy is crippling for an artist. And today, I mean, imagine back in the day, like the only time you were going to see envy is if you walked into the gallery or the salon, right, or you walked into the artist studios near where you lived and you saw the work and you know you go. You know whatever. I need to run back and make art, whatever, but envy makes you go. I'm never going to do it.
Speaker 1:They're not as good as me, they haven't been around as long as me, they haven't worked as hard as me, but they're getting their shot. They're getting their chance. Why am I not now? Resistance sets in now. That holds you back from everything, and I have this conversation with artists. All the time they get locked into scrolling and as they're scrolling, rather than looking for being inspired or being driven by these things, they get envious and they get jealous of those people around them who are getting things that they're not, and that is that's a disease. It's a mental crippling disease, for for the artist to get stuck in that repetitive motion of comparing is fine, oh wow. I think I'm better than them and they're doing more than me. I need to step my game up. So I think probably a small percentage of us have.
Speaker 2:In other words, the moment we experience that or feel that, just oh, set it aside, that's not my business, but let's just assume that we're going to experience a version of this at different times. How can that be channeled? How can we take that energy and say, I mean, to your point, leave the salon, run back and say, all right, I got to get to work? You know how many stories have we read, how many biographies, autobiographies have we read about artists that have done exactly that? All of them, and it's led to some of their best work? Yeah, right, yeah, so there is something to be done with that, but it has to be processed and channeled in a productive and healthy way. I mean the number of times I've seen other artists on Instagram that have thinner ankles than me. You know what I mean and I'm just like man. I looked down at my ankles. I'm just like why are they not?
Speaker 1:I just love. There's nothing you can do, Nathan. I know there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 2:I know they're so thick, but I mean, one of the many things I love about Jerry's writing style is just, you know, sneaking those things in there that are just, but it is. I mean, it's a silly sort of tongue-in-cheek example of feeling sorry for ourselves because we don't have a an advantage that we think that somebody else does. And to your point about social media, is really we talk about this all the time but it's it's. It's something that is really important to just acknowledge and understand is that when what we see of other people, it's it's the best of the best, it's the highlights, right, you know, and it's.
Speaker 2:And we all, we all know, like intellectually, that that's not reality. We know that what we're seeing is just the best of the best, it's just the, it's just the good stuff. But it's really easy to fall in the trap of just assuming that what we're seeing is just how they're living every, every day is just another finished amazing piece. You know, yeah, and some of us share our, our, some people share their failures. You know more readily than others, but for the most part, what we're, what we're seeing, it's just the, it's the highlight reel. You know it's not reality at all. You know it's very, very, very safe to assume that the people that we might be envious of are experiencing a very similar, if not identical, version of what we're experiencing when they look at other stuff that's out there as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, and these are all human emotions jealousy, envy, all those things are and it's it's not the fact that you feel it, it's how you act upon that feeling. Right, right, that's what takes those things from being healthy, competitive nature to a destructive emotional pattern. That's right.
Speaker 2:So we're not. We're not wrong. You're not wrong for feeling.
Speaker 1:Not at all. I feel it all the time. It all the time, all the time like what? Oh really, you know? And it's taking me years to get to the point where I can just shut it off, yeah, and just go. Good for them. Good for them and just move on or go. Well, I'm about to spend eight hours crushing it in the studio today because that's just pissing me off. So let's go. Using it in those ways is much better than just going and then crawling up on the couch and flipping on.
Speaker 2:Netflix for 10 hours. That's right. Yeah, that spite can cause one to do one of those two things, and I've done that.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying that I've never done that. I have definitely done that. I'm just going to binge for the next few days because I'm so frustrated that so-and-so's got this, you know, or whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Spite is a useful energy. It's a useful fuel. It's not a great long-term strategy, but for the first it can be extremely helpful and useful to lean into. Let's move to the next section, number 51, deadline Deadlines from heaven. Deadlines are sent from heaven via hell.
Speaker 2:When you have to finish a certain work by a certain time, the pressure can sicken you, make you feel rotten. I haven't not been queasy with deadlines since I became a weekly critic. But deadlines force you to muster the metal to work. Remember your work is entirely voluntary, so procrastination is a self harming habit. Good line, great line Self harming. Procrastinate If you want to, you know. Procrastinate if you must for periods of time, but just know that when we do that we are, we are choosing to harm ourselves and our practice. He goes on to write if you don't have a deadline set one for yourself, many famous artists make their own one day deadlines, and he goes on to list a number of the greats that have done that. It's a trick that helps you keep the work open. I'm going to read that again. It's a trick that helps you keep the work open, unresolved and developing. Meet your deadlines. And so I'm a big fan of manufacturing these self-imposed deadlines. I mean, you think about being a weekly critic. I mean that's a real deadline.
Speaker 2:Hey, we're going to print, we need this, whatever it's going to be by this time and we don't have anything close to that, but I do think. I mean, I had this moment, I think, when I was preparing for my my second solo show, where I was like, and of course, you know, after the, every time we promise ourselves never again am I going to be, you know, pulling all nighters and and and it's like, no, here, here we are again, and so just but, but the realization was wow, I can get a tremendous amount of work done in a short amount of time when I have to. Yeah, that pressure drives. It's a very, very powerful, powerful, you know, motivating factor.
Speaker 2:So the question to me becomes all right, how can we really lean into that trick that Jerry talks about setting deadlines for ourselves? And again, they're completely self-imposed. I rarely meet my self-imposed deadlines, but I definitely get a lot more work done when I am somewhat time-focused, lot more work done when I am somewhat time focused. From I think it was part two we talked about finish the damn thing. Yeah, just finish the damn thing, as though you had to, you know, just realizing that the and this is something I struggle with consistently but just the, the extra hours that may go into making something maybe 2% better, hell, maybe worse, if we're being honest is much better spent starting the next thing, finishing the previous one and continuing to push the work forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a little. I have a little deadline hack that that I do and that's, uh, open calls. So while I'm working on a body of work even like the new work I'm working on that I haven't shown or put out there or anything yet. There are three open calls that I have in my calendar with due dates coming up at the end of August and middle of September, and so I have those in my calendar and they pop up every day until the deadline. But my goal is to have a work that I submit to that open call from my body of work. Whether I get in or not.
Speaker 1:It's just giving me that little bit of pressure and kind of forcing me to have a little bit more focus in the moments, because not that we're not focused in the studio, but it's a different focus. With the deadline it's a very different focus. Yeah, you're laser focused rather than broadly looking at everything around you focused, you're just driving towards that certain specific area rather than just looking around everywhere while you're working. So I put a few open calls in, have them in my calendar and it keeps a little bit of pressure in the background, just pushing me to. Okay, I've worked for a few hours today. Let's go ahead and give another hour or two and just kind of see what comes from it, type of things.
Speaker 2:And there's a time for both, for sure. Like both of those phases I think are certainly necessary. You know, we have to sow a whole bunch of seeds and water them, and they need sunlight and all the rest of it for us to be able to harvest. But when it's time to harvest, it's time.
Speaker 1:When you're building for a show, it's a specific focus Right. When you're not, the world is open Yep, like you're still driving with your ideas. The world is open Yep, like you're still driving with your ideas. And all of you artists out there who have had solo shows or even been in group shows, you know that that focus totally changes. When you're driving to finish work with a deadline for an exhibition, there's a single focus of time. Yeah, now, that doesn't mean that ideas don't pop up that entire time, because they always do While you're working mean that ideas don't pop up that entire time because they always do, while if you're working on that specific set of work, you kind of have to parking lot some of those ideas and push them around, or the work kind of changes towards the end, which is why you put in so many more hours, because all of a sudden, ooh, what if I go this way and then cause that pressure is just pushing you to get to that finish point.
Speaker 1:And then, when you don't have that deadline, a lot of artists kind of struggle with okay, now what? Now, how do I kind of focus that same energy in? And so that's that learning process of how to find those other little moments, and that's what Jerry's talking about. Set some specific deadlines for yourself within that time, so that you have that same little pressure or drive pushing you.
Speaker 2:Well, that's where I think having a practice around capturing those ideas that do come up when it is time to just finish what's already in front of us, but to capture those little threads to be pulled later, is really, really valuable, whatever that looks like for you. I've taken to doing audio voice memos. I've used that app every day, you know, before I leave the studio, as I'm driving home, like just capturing different things that have opened up. I'll then transfer that into notes or a digital documents that I that I keep, that I can revisit later and that's really fun, it's a blast to.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's right, I did have and this is one thing that that David Lynch talks about in his book that we've referenced a number of times catching the big fish. But that's. It's one of those things where some of those big fish will come back just by virtue of us continuing to be, you know, in the, in the group, and continue to make new work. But some of them are just, they're just little flashes that if we don't capture them in real time, maybe not, maybe when we don't have time, even if we don't have time to execute on them in that moment but we capture them, we set them aside to be revisited later when we do have that open space to really explore.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. And as we're talking about surviving the art world, we're about to jump into something that every single one of us, as artists, are going to deal with on immense levels throughout our entire career, and that is learning to deal with rejection. And I love how Jerry says I tell artists to grow elephant skin because you're going to need it. I've heard other artists say rhinoceros skin. I've heard you know all these different things from artists like you. Better have thick skin If you're going to be in the art world. You're going to need it.
Speaker 1:Criticism happens even to the masters, and the impressionists are one of my favorite stories in art history. After a precocious debut, claude Monet was rejected repeatedly by the Paris Salon. The Paris Salon was the it. You weren't doing anything if you weren't in the Paris Salon. At that point, edward Manet was said to display inconceivable vulgarity. Manet didn't want to exhibit with Cezanne because he thought Cezanne was vulgar.
Speaker 1:A contemporary critic wrote does Degas know nothing about drawing like constantly getting rejected from peers and critics and the art world? And he says at the end of this but don't ignore the bad reviews. Instead, keep your rejection letters, keep your bad reviews, your slights, your oversights and the rest. Paste them on your wall. They're goads, things for you to prove wrong. Don't get taken down by them. They don't define you, and I love this. This is one of my favorite moments, except that any this is coming from a critic the critic in the US. Except that any piece of criticism might have a grain of truth to it that something in your work allowed the critic to lower the boom, or maybe you haven't yet found a way to make your work speak to people that you're trying to reach. That's on you, take it in. Don't blow it out of proportion. Then get back to work.
Speaker 1:I always tell anyone criticizing me you could be right. It has a double edge. Sometimes the victim never feels a thing. Now, I'm just going to kind of breeze through 53 here, because it's the same thing. Sometimes the victim never feels a thing. Now, I'm just going to kind of breeze through 53 here, because it's the same thing.
Speaker 1:After the rejection, after you get this critical injury, you have to recover from these things. We're human beings. Our feelings get hurt very easily. We're artists. We're emotional. We're putting ourselves and our souls into our work. When we get rejected or we get trash talked or a troll finds us on Instagram. Whatever it is, it's going to hurt. It's an injury, right, it's a mental, it is a character injury. You have to recover from it. And I love this Jim Lewis, who actually got to meet a while back at a Jerry lecture. He's an Austin novelist and critic.
Speaker 1:If people dismiss your work, strive to make them hate it. If no one hates it, it might not be art. I love that. Any true gesture put out in the world is bound to please some and displease others. So don't make your art go down that easy. Often you can learn more from the boos than you can from the applause, especially if you're brave enough to really think about them. The qualities in your work that bother people are often precisely the ones that you should cultivate. Push so far out of the axis of vice that they come around to be virtues. So we get beat up, we get punched, we get a bad review. Somebody talks about our work. Then we have to recover from it in a healthy way and keep pushing ahead. And I know this was a few years back. I'm not sure if you were still in the program or if it was just after the program, the next session, my mentorship program. I think it was after. Was it after or was it during?
Speaker 1:It was after yeah or was it during, it was after, yeah. So I got a message from, uh, somebody that was in your session that said hey, Ty, have you been to Jerry Saltz's Instagram today? I said no, I haven't. And they went oh, you need to go check it out. Go look at it right now. And it was a weird message Right. So I was thinking, why are they sending this weird message?
Speaker 1:So I go to Jerry's Instagram and he's got the a carousel post and he's just basically being Jerry and ripping to shred a number of male artists who are working large scale on pieces and he's got a whole I mean, it's a there's a pretty long description that he's ripping into these guys.
Speaker 1:So I'm swiping through and I'm and I don't really know any. I know who these artists are from Instagram, Cause at the time their accounts were really kind of exploding some of these artists, and it keeps going through. And then all of a sudden, I land on none other than you, Nathan Turborg, of just a few I think it were you the last one on the carousel, or one second to last, or something. And I went, oh no, and my first thought was cause I'm literally teaching in the program at this point, I just went through this section on bad criticism, rejection and recovering from injuries, and so I remember hopping on the phone with you and going, hey, you want to talk, so tell us about this, this, this you're not too long into your art career and then a Pulitzer prize winning art critic basically tears into the work you're making.
Speaker 2:I did want to talk when you called for sure, yeah, I mean. So I want to be clear. He didn't name I don't think anybody. Right, he didn't name anybody. He even said I don't know anybody here.
Speaker 2:I just found these from the internet you know, and so that was at a time, for sure, when I had my, my Instagram. Uh, engagement was well ahead of my work. I will, I will put it. I'll put it that way and I want to be very clear too.
Speaker 2:Like it was, it was not a criticism of any of those artists work, specific, general criticism, generalization and, to be fair, like the, the video that he pulled it fit perfectly, you know, in that narrative.
Speaker 2:So, you know, after I sat with that for a little bit of time I was like, yeah, that actually that that was fair, you know. So, even though it was not a direct criticism of my work or what I was doing as a whole, by any stretch, I go back to that one line that you read earlier, much trickier, except that any piece of criticism might have a grain of truth to it, that something in your work allowed this critic to lower the boom, and so that really was a seminal moment for me, even though it was again just a clip that fit and wasn't really a full evaluation of my work at the time. But even if it had been a full, it would have fit right. And so I made a decision at that point, and the decision I made was. Never again will I fall in a category of just another blank Now, or at least make it much more difficult to say that about my work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and I took that kind of what we were, what we were referencing earlier, I took that energy into the work and I said, you know, this is, this is fair. I, I do belong sort of in this batch and I'm not going to let that happen again. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to take my work far out of field, I'm going to let the wild animal in me feed. You know from a previous quote that we shared one of my probably my favorite you know from from this book, and I'm going to keep pushing. I'm not going to camp out where I was and I was early on. I mean, it was nothing even resembling what I'm doing now for that reason, but that decision was really important for me to be able to be like okay, there is more than a grain of truth in this and what do I want to do with that?
Speaker 1:Will you share with me real quick, just with everybody that's listening, as a beginning artist, cause at that moment you were beginning, you had nothing, no shows lined up, no, nothing. Like you were just trying to figure out who am I as an artist and what am I going to make and where am I going with this, and you were just getting very, very serious about it. So, just as a human being, me like what was that initial, like discovery of that moment and the feelings like I was, uh, I was gutted.
Speaker 2:I mean I was, I, I was, I felt sick to my stomach. Yeah, I mean especially that first, when I first read it and saw it, like that first day or two it was, it was, I was, I was mourning the loss of an art career that didn't even exist. You know what I mean. I was just like, well, I'm done. You know, jerry said so and so that's, that's that, and it's uh, it's been a nice little experiment, let me, let me figure out what I'm going to do instead. I mean, I was absolutely gutted. Yeah, there's, there's no other way to describe it.
Speaker 2:You know, I really did take that on the chin and and it hurt, it hurt a lot again, even though I keep I keep saying this as a qualifier, but I did understand that it wasn't like, hey, I've looked at Nathan Turborg's work and blah, blah, blah, but I, I really did feel like initially, like that was the, that was the end, like, like I was done, like there was no point in continuing. You know, all of the, whichever section, the, uh, the thin ankles, yeah, you know, I will say it this way Imposter syndrome was, was, was that that in me, was fed, it was alive and well and raging, you know, for for a couple of days, and it took me some time to take that energy, process it and use it. I'm proud to say, uh, that I, that I did do that, I used that energy and said, nope, not again, never again Is this going to happen. And because, let's be honest, like I was just trying to find my way and I was just doing stuff, you know, if you would have asked me at that point, do you feel like you've found anything close to your style or your unique voice, I would have said no, I mean, I I think I kind of like what I'm doing, but I have no idea where this is going. You know, and, um, yeah, it was, uh, it was rough, but I'm super thankful for it now. I'm super thankful because that really was a big turning point for me.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why I asked the question because that really was a big turning point for me. Well, that's why I asked the question. That's why I asked the question, because all of you artists out there are going to have a moment like that. It's inescapable. You're going to have a moment where you're absolutely crushed, your spirits are broken, your work is disliked, it didn't go the way you wanted it to, nothing sold, nothing moved. What you thought was going to be the next step is two steps back.
Speaker 1:This is just part of being an artist, and I think this is probably why, in the history of art, there is a lot of addiction and a lot of young deaths and a lot of artists who stop because recovering from critical injuries. There are certain steps we have to take to not take those injuries with us along the road and continue to bring us down and make us lean on things that are not ourself and lean on other things to help lose that feeling or lose that injury Right. And so how you deal with that can not saying that it won't can affect your career, can affect your trajectory, can affect the way that you make your work. I'm not saying always, but it can. So learn everyone how to recover from those things.
Speaker 1:Well, whatever it takes, I don't know what that means If you need counseling for things because you just have such a hard time recovering from stuff. That's why having those art friends is so important, because they understand the moment. Yeah, they understand the losses. They understand the losses, they understand the celebrations, and being able to sit and talk about those things with your artist crew and your artist friends is just vital. It's so vital.
Speaker 2:It's funny, as you say, that I'm remembering the therapist that I was working with at the time. We had a session scheduled for that afternoon Actually, it was shortly, it was that same day and she said okay, so should we pick up where we left off? I said, no, we're going to talk about something else today. Let me tell you where I'm at right now, and so you know, one of the things that she helped me with was just realizing that and this applies certainly to all artists, all creatives we're sensitive, you know, we're, we're, we're extra sensitive. That's one of our superpowers as well. That's something that absolutely makes us better artists.
Speaker 2:But there's a there's, there's, there's a I don't want to say a downside, but there's another, another, an opposite side of that coin is that we are more open to injury, I would say, or, you know, feeling things at a deeper level, making things mean more than they do in both directions is a tendency you know that that we have. So it does come back to acknowledging all right, is my is? Is, is my personal safety really in danger? I felt as though I was physically being attacked. Safety really in danger? I felt as though I was physically being attacked. Yep, um, you know, uh, but am I safe? Are my loved ones? Okay, you know, is this? Is this really, uh, a five alarm fire where, where I need to have that fight or flight, you know response, or is it something that I can just sit with and and work through and process and do something useful with Yep?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I've had so many critical injuries over the years and it's like none of them are easier than the other to recover from, and I've had plenty of short moments of throwing the towel thoughts because of those injuries. Right, and it's like you have this feeling inside of why in the hell am I doing this? If it's going to go this way, right, and it's like you can either make that short lived or you can make that long term, and I think it's taken me a while to get to the point where I'm able now to make them very short term Right.
Speaker 1:You had talk about your experience with the gallery in LA. I mean, that was, yeah, I had a blue chip gallery in LA that had formed, with a really big investor behind them, and the director from Maddox Gallery LA went to run that gallery and I was one of the first artists in there with some fantastic artists from around the U? S and one thing led to another and the investor who owned the space had run away with investor money and he had a couple Michelin star restaurants. So he's he's a big, big, big deal financially and he had fraudulent PPP loans from COVID and fled the country and stole art, didn't pay people who had bought, didn't pay artists whose art had sold, did not deliver, didn't pay people who had bought, didn't pay artists whose art had sold, did not deliver art to the people who bought the works. And some of us had work stuck in storage unit that was going to auction off the work because he had an enormous owed debt to the store art storage facility. So they're going to auction off the art to get their money back.
Speaker 1:I mean, lapd was involved. I had conversation with detectives to get my work back with LAPD. That was just a bitch of a situation. They were wonderful and then I lost my insurance after that because there were two paintings stolen. So they actually my art insurance paid for those paintings that were stolen, but then they dropped me after that, so it's just the gallery's gone. I have to spend money to fly out to LA to rent a truck to drive my work back. Luckily, the manager who was fired by this guy for calling him out on his financial things had recovered my work for me with the LAPD. She was wonderful in doing that. But I lost money, I lost art and it was one of those moments where you just took the next step in your art career and then it's just taken away from you and you're kind of back to where you thought you weren't going to be anymore. And in that moment I was so devastated, utterly devastated, and I said you know what, let's sit in the devastation today and then let's get back on the horse tomorrow. So I allowed myself some time to just complain and bitch and moan and be sad and frustrated. And then I turned around the next day, or it was probably a week or so, and then went all right back at it. Let's go.
Speaker 1:I have hundreds of these stories from artists, friends in the art world. This is just part of it. You can ask any artist who's made it right to the level that you want to be at and they're going to have stories of work going missing, um, work being damaged. I've had work damage shipping coming back from the museum show. I've had work completely damaged done. I had work damaged in shipping to the museum for the show. Luckily the museum restore was able to fix the edges of it before it went on display for the exhibition. But just that it's a critical injury, knowing that your work was treated like shit by somebody you pay to ship it and then it's not even hanging the way that you actually created it. There's something wrong with it. All of these things cause these injuries that I think, if you handle it well, it only makes you a better artist. Only makes you a better artist.
Speaker 2:We were talking earlier about Elephant Skin and it reminded me of a Tom Petty song. I think it was on Wildflowers. I just pulled up the lyrics, but the name of the song is Rhino Skin. Do you remember that song? Yeah, great album, one of my favorites. I'm going to read the first couple of lines you need rhino skin if you're going to begin to walk through this world. You need elephant balls if you don't want to crawl on your hands through this world. Maybe let's talk before we kind of close this section. Maybe let's talk about okay, cool, sounds good. Rhino skin, elephant skin. Yep, got to be tougher, got to process this. But that's not an overnight decision. Like, oh, I've just got rhino skin. Now Like, no, you know, close our eyes and it just doesn't happen that way.
Speaker 1:You know. So maybe, Ty, if you could speak to what that process has been like for you to maybe not just wake up with rhino skin, but how have you been able to thicken your skin over time without becoming desensitized to the sensitivity that makes you a great artist? Yeah, I think there's a few things. One and we talk about this a lot is I read and I study a lot, and so I constantly am hearing the same stories from my heroes, and that, to me, is nothing more than a massive encouragement to know that my heroes in the history of art went through the same things I am going through. Like that, for me, is I'm not alone. I've had, I have a big network of artists, friends, and I know their stories. I think vulnerability plays a huge part into it as well, that I'm willing to call my friend V and say, devastated, this just happened and get it out in the open and not hold it in and share it with somebody else and let somebody else share that with you. I think that's huge.
Speaker 1:But early on, when I first left uh one of the businesses, I started to go into art full time. I drove my workout to California to see uh, one of my old art professors and some of my old peers from art school and just share my work and just talk. Am I on the right track? What am I doing? Being vulnerable with new work and new ideas. And William Catling, who's one of my heroes, was one of my art professors, incredible sculptor. He said you better be tough, you better be tough. You will never do anything more difficult but also more joyful in your life.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, go ahead. Well, what I'm hearing is that I mean, in order for us to properly address and heal a wound, we need to first acknowledge that there is a wound there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And if you don't have one, you're not going to know how to deal with it yet. So I think early on, I knew these things were coming. I believed him. He's been through it, he, you know, he's had work, he's had sculptures missing, things be shipped off the wrong places. Uh, like, he's been through it. So I trusted him. Right, there's a trust factor. He's a mentor figure, like if he says it, it's probably true, but I have no idea what that means or what that's going to look like until you get there and then you go oh, there it is. Yeah, this is horrible. Yeah, but I know, knew it was coming and I was vulnerable enough to share that a lot of times on Instagram.
Speaker 1:I've been somebody who's been very vulnerable with when things happen. Well, this just happened. You know, this work just got damaged or I blew this, or this happened to me. So just know, everybody out there, these things are going to happen. They're inevitable. You can't escape it. It's life Like shit happens. So just know, prepare yourself ahead of time for something might happen. How are you going to handle it when it does? There is self preparation you can do emotionally, expecting those things to happen and come and I think having a network is one of the best things. You can have friends around you that understand, outside of your family, outside of your non-art friends, where you can get on the phone and go and bitch and moan and complain about what happened, and they can go yep, that happened to me last year.
Speaker 2:And to Jerry's point, all roads really do lead back to get to work, you big babies, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I'm a big baby and I need to get to work right. If I really want to take it from wanting it to doing it, to living it. Maybe I regress on that path to. Maybe I just want it. Hell, maybe I question if I really want it. Man, if this is what's on the other side of it, do I really want this, you know? But it has to at some point be translated back into the work, it has to get back into doing it. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this next section for me was also another part of that learning process through all that stuff, because so many of my favorite artists when I were young were the overnight successes, so like the Basquiat's and you know artists who like hit it really quick, kind of those art stars you know, because when you're in art school, like the art stars are the ones that you're celebrating in the moment and so you're not really well, at least for me. I didn't really care about all the people who spent an entire lifetime building work. I wanted it to happen like right away, and so there's just kind of for me there was this machismo of like oh, I can do it, my work's good, it's so good, it's perfect, it'll fit. I just need to find the right spot and I'm going to blow up. And then, as you mature, you kind of realize, as he says here, overnight is overrated. Art stars are few and far between the majority of the art world and history are the ones who've lasted a very, very long time and made a ton of work and it's hard to not think you're going to be an overnight excess or want to be. And he says art gives up its secrets very slowly. 30 months isn't enough time, it takes a lifetime.
Speaker 1:And I want to read this quote from Julian Schnabel, right after he got to New York as a young man 17, 18 years old at the Whitney internship, and he says every artist who comes to New York wants to have a show right away. Suppress this idea. Young artists Understand there's no reason to have a show if there's nothing to show. You might feel like you're a great artist, and maybe you are. You might be capable of doing something or saying something, but maybe you haven't done it or said it yet. Young artists are impatient for the approval of other people, but approval for what? I think it's better to just continue working, letting everything that is stimulating you affect you. Maybe this sounds easy for me to say it is, but it's a fight and you'll always have to fight, because even after the galleries like your work, it's even more difficult to keep your autonomy.
Speaker 1:And he was saying that after he had a collector come or a gallerist come, look at a piece of art, one work of art that he was so proud of. And the guy walked in and kind of went okay, thanks, bye. And he was devastated. But he realized later like he needed that moment of rejection, though, for him to realize I'm nowhere near where I need to be. Yeah, and even if he loved that work, I have nothing else behind me to enforce for a period of time for that person to even take a chance on me long term, because there's nothing to show yet. So overnight is overrated. Just be patient, everybody, and keep making work.
Speaker 2:Art gives up its secrets very slowly, very slowly, but what I read there is it does give up its secrets over time. That's kind of the subtext of that. Right, this is a long game, we're playing a long game, so it may not give up its secrets in 30 months. It may take 30 years, but it will. A version of art giving up its secrets, which, of course, is going to look very different for different people, but it will happen. It takes a lifetime.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I'm just going to brush through. Having a family is fine, because I think that's just a great encouragement to everybody out there who does have a family. It's okay. Have a family, invest in your family, make your family a part of what you're doing. And I have a note in here that says involve your kids, don't neglect them. Involve them in your art making, involve them in going to shows, taking them to museums Like we shared last week a lot of the images from when you and Ella were in New York and her pictures of you looking at Witten's work up close and having her in that experience and talking about those things Like bring your kids into that world.
Speaker 1:You know, I read so many art books and, man, I get so freaking frustrated with the artists that are just neglecting their family and neglecting their kids and, as I would say, sacrificing in the wrong ways to make it, because I truly believe that every one of these artists could have still had the same career, even by keeping their family involved in what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Sure, would have been more difficult, yeah, but they could have done it. I truly believe that because I've seen a lot of other artists who have, who do it and have a great family life and invest in their kids, and their kids are a part of what they're doing and they're not neglected, and so having a family is fine. Moms out there, dads out there, like I had a one of my friends, spencer, came to my studio a few weeks ago and she brought her daughter with her. She was in town in Waco and she brought her daughter and she wanted to see the studio and we sat and hung out and her daughter's in the studio playing with my studio assistant, cash, my puppy, and we're sitting talking about art and looking at work. But she involves her kids in what she's doing and sometimes they even paint on her paintings with her and then she paints through what they're doing and they add a little bit, and I have other friends that do the same. So involve the family.
Speaker 2:It's a real joy, ty, honestly, to be able to bring your family into something that is special. I think that I'm remembering specifically one time when our oldest was like she was joking when she said this, but she goes yeah, my, my, my biggest flex is that my dad's an artist, so it's a great way to be a cool parent, you know for for sure. If nothing else but bringing them into the process has been such a joyful thing for me. You know our oldest, lydia is, is a part-time studio studio assistant. She's also got a great eye. I really enjoy bringing her into the work itself. So does my wife. Sometimes I'm like hey, I got two ways I could go with this A or B, and when either of them is definitively B, I'm like Great. I don't do it often, but it's so much fun just to have them around and for it to be a family affair. It's not something that a lot of career paths are inherently interesting or fun to pull people into. This is one of them where it really really is, and it's just incredibly fulfilling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, part of our, whenever we're on vacation, part of our vacations is going to art museums and so we go around and we look at work and we talk about it and we go to dinner and I love it. I mean it's one of my favorite things. She'll take pictures of me in front of paintings. She has me snap shots of her in front of the one she loves and we talk about those works and, and I love now that I have my studio on property again behind my house, I missed having Mandy always coming in in the middle of the day when I'm working and just seeing what I'm working on and you know saying I don't know if I like that, or Ooh, I really love that one.
Speaker 1:We never like the same ones, like she always likes ones that I'd not really like and too much. But I need to still listen. That's still an audience, right? Well, what is what is she seeing that? What is it? Oh well, she likes that color. That's what it is. What is what is she seeing that? What is it? Oh well, she likes that color. That's what it is. Or, you know, but still it's. But she knows art, she's around it all the time, she can't escape it. She hears me talk about it every freaking moment, right. And there's the times where we're at dinner and she's like, oh my gosh, I got to hear this again, you know, but so she's got. Sometimes the best feedback that Nikki gives me is don't you dare do a single additional thing, stop.
Speaker 1:Yeah, make you think.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 1:No, it's done, don't do anything else.
Speaker 2:Stop fiddling. She once said I will be mad at you if you do anything else to this particular piece. I gave that one to her for anniversary. But yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:I'm going to skip ahead here to 57, which has a great quote from Jerry's wife at the top Artists do not own the meaning of their work. That's from Roberta Smith. I'd say she's probably the greatest art critic in the US in the last 25, 30 years and that's the Pulitzer Prize winning art critic's wife. So and she says remember I think this is really good for us to keep in our heads what he says here Remember anyone may experience your art, any art in any way that works for them. You may say your work is about diaspora, but others may call it a reflection on climate change or nature study. This is something you want, roberta elaborates. This means your work is alive, that it has more than just you in it. If you're lucky, it will remain alive long after you're gone, changing and growing as more and more people come into contact with it. That's what happens when you put your work out into the world. People will talk Let them. You couldn't stop them if you tried.
Speaker 1:Artists, when your work leaves your studio, it's no longer yours. Yeah, you made it, but that work is no longer yours. You do not control that anymore. Some artists have a really hard time with that, others none right.
Speaker 1:As Helen Frankenthaler said, let her rip. When your art leaves your studio and goes into the gallery or goes to the show or goes into the museum or goes into the art center, it's no longer yours. That art is now the world's art. That is now the viewer and the audience's art To see it however they see it. Do not control how they see it. Let that work be alive. You're killing the work If you're trying to control how the audience views it once it's out there. Think about that. The work is alive, ever-changing, ever-growing. Every single person is going to have a different view. Their eyes see things different. Some people know art, some people don't know art. Some people love art. Some people look deeply, some look more shallow, some look certain things gather in front of other people's eyes and observations and totally transport them into completely different areas than somewhere someone else. If your work does that, that's the magic of art. That's what we want our work to do does that.
Speaker 2:that's the magic of art, that's what we want our work to do, and it doesn't matter what the that is, it doesn't matter what it does, it's that it is doing something. That's what really matters. I'm going to paraphrase a quote from earlier in the book that we talked about in one of the previous parts. It was something to the effect of the sooner people understand your work, the sooner they move on. Yeah, right, and it's true. I mean you think about, think about the way that we as not as artists, but as viewers of art, as appreciators of other artists, work. I do that, I mean and I'm not proud to say it but there's certainly a lot of times where I'm like, okay, yep, I get it All right. Yeah, yep, I get it All right. Yeah, you know, um, making work that is not easy to dismiss, or move on from making work that does that is alive, that does affect people in ways that we couldn't have even predicted or guessed, that's, that's incredible. That's what we're after, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And here's an. Here's another good one on 59. This was really big for me as a art connoisseur, somebody who studies art. Yeah, what you don't like is as important as what you do like. I love that when you come across a piece of art that you don't like, ask yourself what would I like about this work if I were the kind of person who liked it? I think that's a great little sentence to have in the back of your head. Okay, what if I did like this? What is it about this work that would make me like it? Make a checklist of the qualities. Try and spot at least two good qualities along with the bad. What is the work's approach to color, structure, space, style? Is it craftsman or craftsy? Is it simplistic? Is it muddy? It goes on to add a few more things. If you find it didactic, define exactly what that means to you and what a work of art should be instead. At the very least, this should give you a working list of your own artistic values. It'll make your artist statement much sharper. I have in my notes here for the artists in my program, find multiple pieces that you don't like. Share them and talk about them.
Speaker 1:When I read this when the book came out, every time I went to a museum it completely changed, because there were certain areas I skipped to go to other areas Because I would skip the work I didn't like. When I read this I went okay time to do the opposite. So I would go to the rooms I didn't like first and I had spent an enormous amount of time asking questions what do I not? What is it about this? Why would it be hanging in here?
Speaker 1:And if I didn't know, I'd get on my phone and I'd look up the artist, I'd look up the period of time, I'd look up the artist, I'd look up the period of time, I'd look up the historical elements, all these different things, and I might go oh, wow, and then be totally brought in, or I may go, yep, still don't like it. But I think what it did for me more than anything is it made me look at my work differently from that point on, because I'm having these conversations with things and ideas I don't like, which is just building my subconscious and building my thinking abilities and my knowledge up to a point where I can be wiser with my own work and I can talk about my work better, cause I'm not just having conversations with work I like. Now I'm having conversations with work I don't like, and that's only increasing my ability to talk about art in a public place or on Instagram or wherever, with more.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? And furthermore, absolutely, and furthermore, your work is not just being viewed by people who like it.
Speaker 2:It is also being viewed and seen by people who don't like it. That reframe is so powerful. I is I double underline that one. What would I like about this work Were I the kind of person that liked it? That reframe is so, so powerful because, okay, let me assume the character of somebody other than me, somebody who does like this. What would I like about it? What is there to like about this? But it just forces us to view it and consume it from a completely different lens than yep, nope, yep, nope, yeah, I mean that sort of like binary no, I'm not going to spend time with this one that really closes us off to all of the questions and all of the experiences that you just that you just elucidated yeah, 60,. I love this one. That you just that you just elucidated yeah, 60. I love this one.
Speaker 2:You must prize radical vulnerability. Jerry writes what is that? It's following your work into the darkest, most dangerous corners of your psyche, revealing things about yourself you don't want to reveal, but that your work requires you to, and allowing yourself the potential of disappointment. We all contradict ourselves. We contain multitudes. You must be willing to fail flamboyantly, to do things that seem silly or stupid, even if they might put you in the crosshairs of harsh judgment. So this goes to that last portion especially goes to, I think, something that, uh, that Rick talks about a lot Rick Rubin in the creative act, but just that it's not our business. What happens and it's really the reverse of what you were talking about before it's not our business. What happens, you know, with the work afterwards it's, it's really, it's really not up to us, yeah, and so any consideration of potential harsh judgment really has to be suspended or ignored altogether. That's not my business, that's not up to me.
Speaker 2:What is our responsibility is to be bold. It takes boldness, it takes courage to look at things that we don't like to look at and, if we're being honest, that's often where the most interesting things about ourselves and potentially things that we can take into the work, where they really live. You know, if all we're going to do is let's just think about the process of making art and the act of being in the studio, art and the act of being in the studio if all we're going to do is lean into the things that we're comfortable with, that we want to show or want to share not the work specifically, but the things about ourselves that's going to be pretty boring work. At the very least it's going to be very repetitive over time. You know, because the the amount of things that are in that to re rephrase here the darkest, most dangerous corners of our psyche we can peel back the layers of the onion indefinitely. You know, if there's one thing that being middle-aged has taught me, it's that there's no end to what's in there?
Speaker 2:You know, and most of it, especially things that we're not familiar with or haven't spent much time with previously, most of it is really uncomfortable, awkward. It feels like we're literally opening up a vein and saying you know, here it is, but there's so much value in that. Back to a previous section, I think, from the book art and therapy. Again, not art as therapy, but art and therapy. Right, that's the, that's the, that's the. You know, we get to do this, we, we have the ability.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think about the things that I've learned about myself, most of which have not been super fun or exciting to come face to face with, but the things that I've learned about myself since I have been completely consumed with this life of making art, and that is a gift that we get as artists.
Speaker 2:To be able to do that, to have the space to do that. It is something that, of course, you know, anybody in any walk of life you know could do, but probably not for six, eight, 10, 15 hours a day like we have. So I think the question becomes you know, am I leaning into that? You know, am I leaning into what's there? Am I willing to look at things that aren't fun or comfortable to look at, and am I willing to fail flamboyantly? Am I willing to do things that seem silly or stupid? I think the more we can answer yes to that, the more interesting the work is going to be, and the faster you know I'm all about accelerating this process the faster we can get to a place where we're as close as we can be to making work that's authentic to us we're as close as we can be to making work that's authentic to us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to be a great artist, you need to be gathering and we talk about this as much as you can, always, always and I love the silly and the stupid right, Because I'm in that. I'm like, is this dumb? What I'm doing Seems really and I've told you this on the phone. I'm like this seems really like cheesy and silly, but it's like no stop, Get out of my head. I'm learning, Right, I'm actively learning. I'm trying to get somewhere Now. Will it stay the way it is right now or will it continue to evolve? I don't know. I'm still working through that process, but if we're not open and willing to be radically vulnerable, like that little section is there? Radically vulnerable means open to anything, expressing anything, allowing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, continuing to push forward, even if the answer to the question of is this dumb? Is maybe, maybe it might be. Yeah, it might be, this might be silly, this might be dumb. And I'm going to keep pushing forward anyway because if we keep and I mean, I think every, every artist listening to this right now asks that question, either consciously or subconsciously, on a regular basis. So let's just acknowledge that. That's that's part. Is this dumb? Does this suck? Is this bad? Is this silly?
Speaker 2:We're asking that question all the time. The the the important thing is to is to recognize when we're asking that question and keep going anyway, again, just having faith that there's something on the other side of the courage required to keep going, as opposed to censoring ourselves and say, oh, yep, oh, this might be dumb, let me pull back. Let me get back to my normal groove and my typical thing that I don't know where to go with that. I just there's just. There's something so powerful about being willing to ask that question and continuing in spite of the fact that the answer might be yeah.
Speaker 1:Well and understanding number 61 here. The next section helps with all of that knowing that you're always learning. If you're able to tell yourself no matter what I'm doing, I'm learning. No matter what I'm doing in the studio, I'm learning. At the end of each day, you know something you didn't know at the beginning. If you're working, you're learning. And that's the win for the day. That's such a win.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a win, that's such a win, that's such a win. No-transcript, just the learning part and just knowing that I'm whatever 1% better in one particular area. Yeah, that has, I mean, a lot of days.
Speaker 1:That has to be enough for us, because if it's not, we're going to feel like a failure walking out the door a lot of days if we're not prioritizing learning and progressing and then understanding whatever you're creating makes you more than you were before you made it. Yep, like that's powerful to me. That was such an encouragement to me when I first read that, and I take that with me every day. I'm more than I was leaving the studio today than I was before I entered it, and I want that to echo every part of my life. That's why I read, that's why I study, that's why I love to travel, that's why I love trying new foods and things, because I want to continue to experience new things and be more than I was every day.
Speaker 2:We don't need to know how close we are to know that we are closer than we were before. Yeah absolutely Better today than yesterday. I think we'll um. Let's close this out Tie with be delusional, I love this section.
Speaker 1:You can read the whole thing if you want.
Speaker 2:I think I will. At 3 am. Demons speak to all of us. I am old and they still speak to me every night and every day. They tell you that you're not good enough, you didn't go to the right schools, you're stupid, you don't know how to draw, you don't have enough money, you aren't original, that what you do doesn't matter and who cares? And you don't know what you're doing and that you're just doing this to get attention or money. I have one solution to turn away these demons. After beating yourself up for half an hour or so, stop and say out loud yeah, but I'm a fucking genius. Stop and say out loud yeah, but I'm a fucking genius. You are too. You know the rules. They're your tools. Now use them to go change the world, get to work.
Speaker 2:I mean, delusion is a super powerful tool, you know. I mean pretty much everybody we talk all the time about and we, we really highlight this in a lot of the quotes that we share from other artists, um and and things that have been written by them or about them, but there's almost always an element of delusion, and really anybody that's achieved anything of of real substance, yeah, you have to be, you know, if you're not going to be your own biggest cheerleader.
Speaker 2:No one else is going to cheer for you. You know, we have to be our, we have to pump ourselves up, we have to get ourselves in that place of like, even if we don't believe it's true the first 10 times we say it like I don't know about you, ty, but I could say that once and immediately my rational conscious mind is going to be like well, that's not true. You're no genius, you're just another blank. That's the first response, probably the second, probably the 50th. But those demons get weaker and weaker. Those voices get quieter and quieter the more we reinforce positive beliefs, whether they can be objectively proven as true or not, if those beliefs have value to us. Proven is true or not, if those beliefs have value to us.
Speaker 2:I'm onto something here. I'm doing something here. Like this matters to me today. Here we go Like I don't know. I talk about a lot. This is kind of one of my, one of my things, but like having those, this is a great mantra. There are plenty of others, but identifying, you know, for each of us, what are the things that we need to continuously be saying to ourselves and reminding ourselves of that can be the antidote to the poison that is all of the fear based thinking that we're naturally going to fall into.
Speaker 2:You know, those demons are going to come knocking at 3 am or whatever time, 3 pm, throughout the day and the night. When they come not if, but when they come what do we have ready for them? What's our, what's our defense, you know, and to me, the best defense against those things is having preloaded delusion that we can tell ourselves and remind ourselves no, this is, this is who the fuck I am, this is what I'm about, this is what I'm doing. And here we go, because without that, we are going to be prey to believing the lies that those demons are going to be whispering in our ear.
Speaker 1:Even if we have to sit in front of the mirror and put on our inner Stuart Smalley.
Speaker 2:I knew you were going to say that.
Speaker 1:And now I'm visioning the edit. Tell ourselves.
Speaker 2:Because I'm good enough, I'm'm smart enough and doggone it.
Speaker 1:People like me but but really like, yeah, like you said, right, be delusional. Yeah, I mean literally, there are times I go, I have I seriously stand in the studio. I go, I will be in the tate someday. The whitney is going to call me someday. Now, the chances of that happening are slim, but why can't I still believe that that slim chance is going to happen? How much do you believe in yourself? I think that's what he's saying Believe in yourself. And he's even saying it happens to me. The demons hit me and I'm a Pulitzer prize winning art critic and I still question things. But I'm able to tell myself no, I'm a Pulitzer prize winning art critic and I still question things, but I'm able to tell myself no, I'm a fucking genius, I can do this. And here's my favorite line though you know the rules, they're your tools. Like that's permission from a Pulitzer prize winning art critic. Use your stuff.
Speaker 2:So two things are true. We can agree that the chances of because I've got I've got some big, bold dreams that I wouldn't even be comfortable sharing, you know, on a microphone and I visualize those things coming to pass yeah, we can agree that the things that you and I are picturing are not statistically likely, that the chances are very slim. The second thing we need to acknowledge, and probably the most important thing in terms of what we do with this, is that the chances they go up. I don't know how much, but the chances definitely increase of those things happening when we do just believe in ourselves and when we sell ourselves consistently on that dream coming to pass. It just does. I mean, call it whatever you want, but there's power in that, there's power in intentional delusion.
Speaker 1:So I think a good closing note is for all you artists out there believe you can do it. Believe that you can do it and get in the studio and make a shit ton of art, and you know the rules. They're your tools, not somebody else's tools. What you want to make and what you want to work with, you, work with you, make it and don't give up on the ideas that are driving you to get there. They're not too silly, they're not too corny. They're. They're your ideas, they're legitimate. Explore the hell out of them and get there. Whatever you're doing, don't let anybody tell you that's cheesy. Don't listen to the people trying to tell you oh, that won't really be our, no, that's what. Just make it and explore it and take it as far as you can take it, until the work tells you to go somewhere else.
Speaker 2:Well, and that last line get to work. I mean, of course, cherry would end the book get to work, you big babies get to work.
Speaker 2:You know we talked before about. You know, want it, do it, live it. We got no chance of living it. If we're not doing it, you know it all come. All of this comes back to make more work. Figure it out. Maybe the ideas that we're exploring right now are silly and stupid. That's possible, yeah, but there's something on the other side of that. We're exploring right now are silly and stupid. That's possible, but there's something on the other side of that. We're going to learn something and we're going to get that much closer to wherever we are ultimately supposed to be, and that is the game that we're playing and that's our episode and that concludes our series on how to be an artist.
Speaker 2:Yes, go buy the book by Jerry Saltz. This is one of those books. I mean, you know you and I are both reading and rereading things that we've underlined multiple times, but this is one of those. It sits on my bookshelf, I pull it out from time to time and all it takes is a section or two to be like yep, all right, here we go. All right, let's go, absolutely. Just a reminder let's see a couple housekeeping things that we oftentimes forget, ty. So if you're listening to us. We do put these on YouTube. Ty does a great job. I mean, just imagine you know Al Franken as Stuart Smalley. I know we're going to see a clip of that. We will see. Yeah, absolutely. And the YouTube edit and if you're somebody who you know gives stars or reviews, that helps the podcast get in front of more people.
Speaker 1:We're not very good at you know. We're not good at pushing ourselves are we.
Speaker 2:But you know, hey, if you're somebody that does that, you know, go ahead. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on. Just see ya.
Podcasts we love
Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.
Talk Art
Russell Tovey and Robert Diament
Chatabix
Keep It Light Media / Big Oval Plate
Makers & Mystics
Stephen Roach
The Week in Art
The Art Newspaper
The Art Angle
Artnet News