Make More, Fear Less: on Critique, Confidence, and Choosing Meaning. A Candid Studio Conversation at Poolhaus, Day 2.

Coffee, rain, and a table full of half-built ideas set the stage for a candid deep dive into how artists actually move work forward in our second conversation at Poolhaus studio. We trade the comfort of endless polishing for a stubborn rule—get to the next step sooner—and unpack how that one shift stops overworking, preserves strong moments, and helps a real body of work take shape. Along the way, we turn useful decisions into mantras, write them on the wall, and repeat them when stamina dips. The goal isn’t perfection; it’s momentum with intention.

We also open the door on critique: how to build a trusted brain trust, weight feedback from mentors versus peers, and curate with clear eyes when your favorite new experiment ranks dead last. Likes are not the art world, and honest notes from people who know your context can be the difference between a scattered show and a resonant one. Confidence matters too—not as posturing, but as fluency in your own language. We talk about answering tough questions from curators, claiming simple choices with conviction, and studying both your work and the person making it.

Life intrudes. A recent loss in the recovery community brings the conversation to grief, meaning, and the privilege of making anyway. Borrowing strength from Nick Cave’s reflections on grief as an exalted, remaking state, we choose boldness over hesitation and practice that isn’t conditional on perfect circumstances. Stock your studio with wisdom like winter coats: books, notes, mentors, and sentences that steady you when the weather turns. Then finish the damn thing, explore the dancing sparks, and move to the next with courage and care.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with an artist who needs a nudge, and leave a quick review so more makers can find it. What mantra keeps you moving?

Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg

Watch the Video Episode on Youtube or Spotify,

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Chapters

• 0:00 Studio Vibes & Art History Jokes
• 3:45 Fresh Aha Moments In Practice
• 7:55 Make Rules For Yourself
• 12:40 Get To The Next Step Sooner
• 20:30 Mantras, Momentum, Finish The Work
• 27:10 Honest Critique And Curation
• 36:20 Overworking And Learning To Stop
• 46:00 Confidence As The Expert Of Your Work

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:11

We're back. Here we are in my studio, day two. I'm excited. It is pouring rain outside. And uh we were sitting outside this morning having coffee and laughing, talking about art, making fun of uh art dealers from early 1800s, Paris. Yeah. Uh yeah, just some fun stories for sure. Some Gertrude Stein and Leo stories, shopping and trying to buy a Saison landscape, and the art dealer uh kept bringing them uh apples. Yeah. Paintings of apples, paintings of nudes, and Gertrude and Leo laughing at Volaire. And that these are the type of things that happen when artists get together. These things that should happen. You should go back and talk about funny stories from art history. At the Thai Nathan Clark compound. That's right. I think it's gonna be a good day. I think we've got some good stuff to talk about. I know you've got some stuff that's jumping off in your head this morning as we've been itching to get in here. So go for it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13

So I think the first thing I wanted to get into today was um, and this is just something that we had talked about when we were like, hey, let's do a couple of of episodes in person since we're gonna be, you know, hanging out anyway, was just kind of taking the approach of what's been what's been fresh for us, what are some aha moments or just sort of light bulb realizations of like, oh, this is what works for me. Yeah. And understanding that, you know, what works for one of us may be transferable to others. Maybe. Um, and uh, if nothing else, just like all the stories that we read of other artists and that we talk about, living living in and past, there's value in really, I think, being a student of our own practice and of our own process. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, I mean, that's the only thing we really need to be experts on. Yeah. You know, yep. It's fun to be in your studio here to just kind of see even the little, you know, nerdy things that only artists would even pick up on or recognize, but how you got your cart organized. And I was playing with a little couple of little sculpture models, and I didn't bring a uh wire cutting wire cutter. I'm like, if I was Thai, where would I keep my wire cutters? And I went right to it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:24

So just channeled my inner TNC and was like, if I was Thai, where would nice?

SPEAKER_02: 2:31

But anyway, so yeah, just kind of you know thinking about you know what works for us and continuing to iterate and refine that over time, I think is is super valuable. So one of the things that I think about a lot is just the value of making rules for myself. I'm a big fan of rules that I get to decide for me. Much less a fan of rules that are you know imposed on by anybody or anything else, really, um, which is you know probably why being an artist makes a lot of sense. But I think the the benefits of you know governing ourselves, being aware of the things that that lend themselves into just in terms of our our our wiring, our internal DNA, our characteristics and character that work, and the things that we need to sort of work against.

SPEAKER_03: 3:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 3:20

You know, uh the the the the wild nature of the beast that sometimes needs to be reined in. So anyway, so for me, one of the big moments that I had recently was just the benefits of and the importance for me of getting to the next step sooner. And so I'll just kind of share how this applies in my practice, and I'm I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it as well. But like what I learned is that I have a tendency to want to overwork certain areas, or I shouldn't even say overwork, but spend way more time than is necessary for something that may very well be, uh, in my case, covered up, cut away, or or blocked by another layer or element on top.

SPEAKER_03: 4:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:12

And so the rule that I've really been thinking about is get to the next step sooner. If I can get to the next step sooner. So rather than before I would prioritize, I would just and and it's not, it was, it wasn't bad, but I would spend way more time than necessary to get an element or get a component of a piece, you know, much further along than it needed to be, because it hadn't yet met its partners in this particular work, right? And so instead of before, I'd work something to 90-95%, which created problems for me because then I would fall in love with certain moments. So you'd keep going. Yep. Yeah. That may or may not serve the piece as a role. Right. And so I would create some unnecessary dilemmas for myself of like, oh, how do I retain that moment there when it didn't serve the composition overall or what I was trying to say with that with that particular piece as it moves further along. So my new goal is if I can just get something two-thirds of the way there, you know, 70, maybe 80% of the way along. And then knowing that I always have the ability to, you know, circle back once it comes together to the components and the areas and the moments that are gonna shine, that are gonna have a voice, you know, in the in the finished work. That's that's really, really valuable for me. And so the value then is is this for me or are you gonna say this out loud? Okay, got it.

SPEAKER_01: 5:47

And making notes on what you're saying in our shared notes in real time. A little BTS for the kids. We're working out of a shared Google document and I'm seeing what Ty's writing. I'm like, oh, is he telling me not to say this dirty word? Stop talking. Stop. I want to be like, hey, listen, we we edit these, you know, we can just cut stuff. Do you want me to read this?

SPEAKER_00: 6:15

Are you teleprompting me? Oh, I feel like I'm that's funny.

SPEAKER_02: 6:18

I feel like I'm reading the news now. That's good. So for me, it's so once I think about like what's a call it a rule, call it a standard, call it a guideline, you know, whatever. But once I can identify something that is going to be helpful for me, at least for now, how can I turn that into a mantra and something that I can remind myself of?

SPEAKER_03: 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:35

You know, that that to me, I think is the is the broad takeaway. My specific rule may or may not apply to anybody else or or most of anybody who's listening. But the idea of once a decision is made, once we identify something about our practice that is going that we believe is going to be beneficial, to then turn into something that I can remind myself of over and over.

SPEAKER_01: 6:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 6:57

Because I don't know about you, but I have a lot of these moments where I'll be journaling, like we talked about in the last episode. I'll be audibly processing something or capturing something, be like, that's it. And these moments of clarity are brief. Yeah. They don't always sustain through the muck of the day-to-day, right? As we fatigue, as our stamina wears down over the course of a session. Uh, I find it to be extremely important to have certain whatever positive phrases, mantras, things that I just kind of lock in or remind myself of. Sometimes I'll scrawl them on my studio wall, which are much dirtier than this beautifully pristine, clean uh church that that we're in. This this chapel to creation that we're sitting in right now. You know, so for me, so the mantra, so the rule is get to the next step sooner. The mantra is just simply an I am statement. I am getting to the next step sooner. And I just repeat that to myself out loud over and over again. I reread it on the wall. You know, it's right where I make my coffee and where I where I fix my meals and stuff in the studio. I see it right in front of me as I'm at the sink, you know, doing dishes and that kind of thing. And so that's really important. So back to kind of something from our Jerry Saltz episodes talking about how to be an artist, finish the damn thing.

SPEAKER_03: 8:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 8:15

Just finish the damn thing. You know, I mean, that's kind of the overarching principle here that I'm really going for is like, finish the damn thing, get to the next thing, right? These couple little, you know, first couple sculptures that I showed you last night. It was, I mean, they're definitely pieces that I could have and I suppose still could spend way more time on, but it's like, no, no, no. They're they're as far as they need to be for what they were intended to be, get to the next, get to the next, right?

SPEAKER_00: 8:41

Well, and last just so everybody knows, like just art life last night, you know, and we talk about this all the time. Find those art partners, find those art friends out there. You've got to have some. Yeah. You know, and sometimes there's wonderful conversations, sometimes there's awkward, hard conversations. And I think finding artist friends who will be completely honest with you, there's no greater thing than when somebody tells me that's not working. Right. Or why are you going that way? And then you go, had no idea. Yeah. Or, yep, that is what I was doing. You know, and so last night, Nathan and I are looking at his sculptures and we were having a really, you know, deep, honest conversation on, you know, what do you think? Are these working? What's happening? And I'm telling him my view, yeah, what I think. Hey, this is what I see right now. This is where I really see you going, but what are you doing here? Why are these things? What is it, the representation that's in your head here? Where are you? And we had an awesome conversation of this, that, that, where to go, how to look, what are these things? And, you know, I I know looking back when I didn't have those relationships, it was like, you know, I was on the farm and a chicken with my head cut off, and I was just running around like aimlessly going, is this working? Does I think I think I like this? And then at the end of the day, I actually wasn't working at all. Right. You know, because I didn't really know, I didn't have good advice from the right people on what's happening that I could then take to my garage and go, okay, let's kind of look at these areas now and gather, and then and I'll finish the damn thing. I've heard from uh countless artists about the struggle with finishing a painting. Yeah. And I I mean, I've had artists in my program who have been working on a certain painting or two paintings for five months, six months, you know, and not like there's something mentally sometimes a hurdle that artists have to get over that to be okay with listening to the work saying I'm done. Yeah. And there's just some for some artists, there's a mental blockade of I've just got to get to that perfect spot for the painting to be done. Paintings are never finished, right? Who I forget who said that paintings are never finished, they're only abandoned.

unknown: 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:56

Right. It's like because every work of art that we make in our lifetime, we can look at and do something different. Yeah. So we have to be okay with moving on to the next thing. And one of my favorite stories is from the Spanish artist Joe Miro, who's one of my heroes, and he was 21 years old in Spain, and he's in his journals, he's talking about working on a certain painting thousand over a thousand times. So I think he says, I completed this painting a thousand times this summer. And it was, and he's talking about how difficult it's been to finish this painting. Right. Well, you fast forward in his journals. I think this goes as 1921 to 1926. So I think he's now in his mid-20s, and he says, I've now completed hundreds of paintings this year. So he's gone from this point of and he talks about the wonder of creating a body of work. Right. And he talks about how much he's learning about the work in this process from going from work to work. So he's past the hurdle of not being able to finish a piece. And he's realizing that no piece will ever be perfect. Yeah. But the only way to get perfection within the work is to keep jumping from piece to piece to piece to piece. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 12:12

Well, and and do you think it's that that's a product of learning that it's it's really the the most we'll be able to do is maybe make something five percent better at best, maybe ten. Or even maybe regress from where it was at one point. And I it's like so I think about looking back at at previous work. You got some incredible pieces in in the house from you know different uh different phases of your of your career. And I I guess uh let me put this in the in the form of a question for you. When you look back at some of the pieces that still today you're like, yeah, that you that you really enjoy looking at the most that you feel are strongest. Can you remember and think back to when you were making them? If in the moment you were like, oh, this is the one, or have they sort of presented themselves to be stronger over time?

SPEAKER_00: 13:10

In other words, did you know in the moment or there's one I would say there's a few that I knew in the moment, but many that have grown over time and have their purpose in place in that line of work. And I think it's uh David Bayless and Ted Orland that said in Art and Fear, the enormous amount of work that you make in your lifetime is for the few that's sore. Right. And so, but I think I've grown really comfortable with that and being okay with knowing that the majority is gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_02: 13:40

And because it takes an enormous amount of work to get the few that's sore, the the more quickly we can get to making enormous amounts of work, the better.

SPEAKER_00: 13:50

Yeah, and I think the things that you said earlier, kind of talking about your mantras and the things you need to put in place for yourself. The goal of an artist is to make great work. But I think the other goal of the artist in that process is learning who you are as an artist. And that doesn't just mean your work. Yeah, you, the person. What do you need for you to make the best work you can make? That's not just time in the studio. That's learning who you are. Yeah. How do I operate best? How can I put out the most work I can put out? How can I sustain a great amount of focus and whatever time I have to focus? Yeah. And then putting those things in place to keep you there. Because for any of us that have our routine or have our discipline set in the way that we do things, we know once we leave that, things are a mess. Yeah. When we step out of that normal routine, we step out of those rules or mantras or things you have in place, however loose or however tight, once we're removed from that, it's a mess to get back into it. Sure. And I think that's part of the problem too for so many of us as young artists in career youth is just bouncing in every now and then to do stuff kind of half-ass or not really focused or with too much frustration. It's hard to really create work and be okay with what you've made to move on to the next thing. So really finding out who you are is part of the process as well and how you need to operate. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:24

I think I wanted to circle back to something you said before around having other trusted friends whose critique and feedback, whose honest critique and feedback that you can, you know, that you're, that you're able and willing to receive. I think that goes back to also identifying the a trusted relationship where you know that like what you're going to be hearing is coming from a place of support and also context. Somebody who's, you know, knows enough about what you've been doing to be able to, you know, give that, give that feedback. And also, you know, understanding when a good time is to ask for that.

SPEAKER_00: 16:08

Yeah, because we're all scared when we ask. For sure. There's no way that no artist is not, does not have one ounce of fear when they go to that trusted person and go, Totally, hey, here's my new body of work. Tell me what you think. Yeah. Because you're hoping you're on the right track. Totally. Because if not, you're going back to the studio and going, Well, shit, do I start all over again? Yeah. Or are they wrong? Right. There's even fear in that moment. Yeah. Are they wrong? I mean, there was a time when this was a few years ago, I'm sure you remember this, when I had a solo show and I had a new body of work. I had those pieces with the folds, sculptural paintings with other work. Yep. And I sent out what I call to my brain trust, trusted artists, trusted friends. And it was a PDF that had all the work in that body of work. Yeah. And I asked everybody to let me know which pieces you feel are the strongest and which pieces you feel are the weakest. Right. So then I took that and I think I sent it to about 55 people. Old professors, uh, mentors, artists from my program, other artists' friends. And what and then I took a PDF and I put all the pieces on it and I hash marked all of them all the way through. Yep. And it helped me curate. Yeah. Number one, because I was curating my own show. It helped me curate the work, but also gave me a really good sense of is the new stuff working? Because I had very new ideas with old ideas. And it was really interesting to me that all the new ideas were the lowest of the selections from people. And all the older ones were the ones that everybody gravitated towards. Which, as we know, Nick Caves says, new work is always most difficult for the existing audience. Yeah. Because they're used to what they know. Yes. And my my men, one of my mentors, the Japanese American artist Mako Fujimura said, I like the folded pieces, they're very new and I don't think they're fully developed yet. So your older work fully developed and feels very strong because you know what you're doing. I'm not saying don't show the new ones, but if you do show them, make sure the older work is the most prominent in the space. Right. And the new ideas are in a place where people can see them, but they're not the focus. So it was really interesting to take all those things and then go back to the studio and look at it. Yeah. But it was also really sucked.

SPEAKER_02: 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:48

Because I was so fucking excited about the new pieces. Right. And there was one in there in particular that was my absolute favorite out of anything I did. And it ranked the lowest of any piece on there. Yeah. So you've got all these competing feelings now that you go back into the studio with now what do you do?

SPEAKER_02: 19:09

Right. Well, and that so that's a really important point, is is also knowing when to, you know, listen and identify, okay, this is, you know, stamped in stone versus, okay, this is this is a perspective. Yep. You know, but it's not, it's it's your work. Yep. You're still the expert on your work, you know. To your point about that feeling of vulnerability, I mean, as well as as you and I know each other and as as much as I trust you, I I definitely had that feeling, you know, last night with the the photos and videos that that I had you, you know, take a look at of just like, all right, you know, and and that that hope, like, oh, am I am I onto something? But just to, you know, be be transparent, like there definitely is that moment. There's a reason why it made sense for us to do that last night versus right before we like I had a chance to go back, you know, go back to my room and lick my wounds and you know, tell myself it was gonna be okay. You weren't that harsh and it wasn't that bad. And it was it's also very, you know, but that but that's the point, right? It is not to not to always just get the the the high fives and the hey you're you you're doing great, keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 20:18

Great work, right? Which is that that's why I call Instagram the false narrative. 100%. Right. It's a it's a myth. It's a false narrative that your work is on the right track because you get you put up a piece and you get a thousand likes, then you put up another piece and you get five. I mean, it's a false narrative. It's a people who like art, but it is not the art world. Yeah. Unless the five galleries you're dreaming to get into all like the piece now, you're okay. I'm on there. But for the most part, it's no, it's what people know and what they see regularly. So they so that's like that false narrative. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:56

Do you I've got a question for you? It's funny you bring up when when you when you had sent that out because as I was looking at some of those, I was remembering when, and I I don't think I've seen all at least all five of those in person. I was remembering when I was looking at them on the PDF and thinking about that. My question for you is do you how do you weight right? Like something coming from Mako, obviously is you gotta weight that heavier than someone from me who you whatever. You know what I'm saying? A mentor versus so how do you weight the feedback? Do you? I guess it'll start.

SPEAKER_00: 21:33

No, I no, I definitely do because I, you know, I would go through and I'd go, okay, well, Nathan, uh, V, um Andre, who's in your program with you in Germany, uh, you know, Moxa had, you know, Allison had all these people that I trust, right, as well. And then I had some people that are deep in the art world, right? Museum artists, mid-career, very successful known artists, right, with their feedback. So there is a separation of wow, okay, Nathan loved these. Well, makes sense. I know why Nathan would like these four more than others. Sure. And there were one, I remember what everybody liked to today, out of those 50, whatever. There are pieces that you liked that not everybody else liked. There are pieces that V loved that nobody else liked. Right. But I know your tastes, I know her. So I was kind of, okay, that makes sense that they would gravitate towards these. So then, yeah, I do have to kind of separate and go, okay, now I have this group of artists here who are lecturing on art, who are curating shows and seeing things. And I go, okay, well, I know why. I don't really know why. I don't have a read on their things that like I do some of these others. So then I that's when I go back and I put that work in the studio. Yeah. And I pull my chair out and I get my coffee and I have their notes printed off. Right. And I'm looking at all the hashtags that I have in people's names and circles, and I have notes everywhere. And I'm going, and I literally, so then after I did that, and I'd look at all the work and go, agree, agree, disagree. I think whatever so-and-so said was only that way because of what they've been working with over the last year or two as a curator or whatever. Right. They're it's not something they like. So it's literally the anopinionated don't like that stuff. Yeah. More than, well, it's really raw, these moments, this is new, the ideas aren't really fully fleshed out. It was more like they just don't like it. So I was able to separate, but then there are ones that I just don't, I don't know. No idea. Yeah. But it forced me to sit with it again, look at it. Then I took my sheet and I curated the show around everything, including myself. Yeah. Because there were pieces that people did not like that I still included in. I think I had 40 pieces and I needed 23 for the show or something. So there were pieces left out that were more popular than others because I felt so strongly confident about those pieces. I wanted to make sure they were shown. Makes sense. Yeah. Before we jump to a next section, there's a word I want to go back to that you said early on that to me is like a bad word. Yeah. It's a it's a dirty word. It's a naughty word.

SPEAKER_02: 24:24

Not the naughty word that you were. It's funny. You so you beat you beat me to the expletive in this episode. I I do need to reference the fact that you threw me under the bus at dinner last night. And you said, you made it seem as though I was the body mouse half of this equation. And I said, You beat me to it.

SPEAKER_00: 24:42

At dinner with family and friends last night, I said that uh one of my nephew's friends is here with us hanging out, and and we were talking about the show. I said, Yeah, well, Nathan's got a really bad mouth. And he said, Oh, so is it explicit? Does that hurt your uh any ads? Your monetization. Your monetization? And I said, Oh no, we're not monetized. I said, and he's the one that always tusses. So anyways, so here you said a bad word before me today, and that's the word overwork. Overworking is an artist words nightmare. We all know that. We get to the point where we really kind of like the work, yeah, and it's feeling good. And then for some reason, our head is like, well, you need to add more. Well, just do these things now. Yeah. And I think there is an artist persona like fight. Like, right, it's like the old cartoon with the angel and the devil on your shoulders, right? And I put it in the last edit two episodes ago, I made sure to put that in the in the YouTube video. But it's like there's almost like there's something arguing, oh no, no, it's not enough. And I've had artists in my program where they've created something really incredible, it's very minimal. But for some reason in their head, they think, well, it can't really be a painting if I don't put a whole lot of stuff on there. Right. Or a gallery won't really want it if it just has four marks and a bit of red. And I say, Well, were you confident in that piece at that moment? Absolutely. Well, then why in the world would you think that a gallery or somebody wouldn't accept it if you're fully confident in it? And then what happens? You start to add and you lose what you had, so you keep adding more to try to get back. Yeah. Keep adding, keep doing more and more. And it's so I think that's why, and we talk about this all the time sitting and looking and listening. We probably say this in every other episode, because it's that important. Yeah, artists, it's that important to put a chair in the middle of wherever you are, in your house, in your studio, outside, and line the work up you're working on, finished, unfinished, and spend time looking at it and studying it because there are gonna be moments where the work is there, yeah, and then you push it past and it's no longer there anymore. So just I hate that word. I just because I when I overwork something, I'm sick. Yeah, I'm literally sick inside. I've got some pieces in here that I was working on, and I felt really good about it. And I thought, what about this new idea? Now, I don't think an overworked painting is a waste. No. But what I'm saying is spend time listening so that you cut that down and have more finished work over here, and you're moving on to the new idea and the next piece.

SPEAKER_02: 27:31

And that really to bring everything full circle, that really does come back to being becoming an expert on your own work. Yes, yes, absolutely. Because that I think is what will allow us to be less susceptible to believing the lie that maybe just a little bit more will make it better. Yep.

unknown: 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:51

Yeah, I had a I had a show years ago, and I was doing a lecture with a uh museum curator, and she was walking the show with me and asking a number of questions and petty freaking questions, like big time curator questions, and some I could answer and some I couldn't. And that that is what pushed me even more to be an expert of my own work. There were questions I should have been able to answer. There were some I was caught off guard and not ready to answer because I was like, how does she know that? You know, about my work. And so I had that nervousness, yeah, and I couldn't, I was fumbling and I figured it's better just to not talk and say I don't have an answer, which I think is fine because you don't want to just make something up, which people do a lot in the art world because it's easy to make stuff up. But I want to be so educated about my work that when I'm nervous and I get a question, I'm like, damn, really, I can answer it without being nervous and not fumbling. And so I spend all that time really looking at my work. And that's why go going and looking at others' work is so important too, because it gives you an understanding about your own. Looking at work you like, looking at work you don't like, and really looking at it, asking questions, writing about it, you know, and then going back to your student, looking at your work. Now you're even more informed. Yep. Because there's gonna be a day in time, I hope, for all of you, where you have that person that you're you look up on a pedestal that starts asking you questions about your work. You want to be so confident in what you know. Not just person, but people. You sent you sent that PDF to 55. I did, I did. So, but that's why it's it's important to take time and really look at your work. So you don't overwork it, but so that you're really educated about your work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:49

And you can answer those hard questions. And then also understanding that at the end of the day, we are the preeminent expert on our own. We are the expert. You are the expert on your work. So as much as you believe in and trust the input, the feedback, the critiques that you're getting, when it's all said and done, you get to decide what to do with what you've received.

SPEAKER_00: 30:10

Well, and you need to answer in confidence. Cause sometimes we get the question, Well, what is this? Why is this? And you go, I just did it. There's no meaning behind that. That's just what I did. Yeah. But when you can answer that in confidence, it's a lot different than, well, I don't know, I just kind of did it. Right? When you start to echo a non-confidence in your work, that makes the curator become less confident about looking at and talking about your work. Yeah. And that's not a word to say. That's not a like lofty, snobby thing for a curator to hear you non-confidently talk about your work and then be turned off. Yeah. That's not this like upper echelon, snobby, like, oh, this artist doesn't know what they're no, it's your confidence is making them not confident. Right. Right. So even if you're saying, nope, I just, that's just what I did. I grabbed pink, I like pink, I grabbed it, I put it on the brush, and I slap it on and it worked. Yeah. Boom, next painting. Yeah. Right. And then other times it's well, pink rep actually for me represents X. And my gestures are because of my heroes and working those two things together. And so there's there's differences in those things, but we want to be able to speak with confidence. Yeah. Because you are the expert. You need to sound like it. Yeah. So even if you're not confident, do it with confidence, is what I'm hearing. Yeah, even if you're not confident, I mean I was nervous. Be unconfident confidently. Yeah. I mean, and I was I was scared in that moment. I have somebody here that I'm like, wow, their resume. I want you to curate my shows someday type moment, right? So I'm a little non-confident in myself in my first solo show with this person literally walking every painting with me in the room. I didn't know that was happening. Right. We were doing a lecture. She wanted to stop by and see the work. Hey, let's walk the room. What? Right? And then I'm getting every question in the world. Yeah. She knew my heroes by looking at my work. Sure. She called them out. You love Twambly, you love Tapez, you love, right? It was there. And I could confidently say, yes, I do, major influence in these four pieces. Right. Yeah. And then, you know, then she got into archival. Yeah. And then you're really gulping. Gulp, gulp, gulp. Yeah. So anyway, that's a story for another day. Okay, Nathan, life. We're all human beings. We all have these goals with our art, with our work, and sometimes life gets in the way. How we deal with life, our emotions, difficult situations, hard things that happen to us on the outside, we still have to be in the studio. How we deal with those things and those emotions can get in the way of our work or can feed into what we're creating. And I know that you lost a friend recently that has been really difficult for you. And I know you called me that day and we talked about his emotion, very emotional moment. And how have you learned? And I know we've talked about this a little bit in our trauma episode on Louise Bourgeois. So Nathan and I do it's almost a two-hour episode on Louise Bourgeois from I think last year, where we really kind of talk about healing and trauma from her perspective and then our lives. But this is recent. Like you're you're in a moment where you're experimenting and you're creating new ideas and new things based on where you're going with your work. And then it's like dead stop emotionally. Because work-wise, you've been on a high. You had solo show in Germany last year, first major solo show. You've got work changing, developing, and then all of a sudden, like, how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_02: 34:22

Yeah, I mean, it's something you said as you were uh setting that up. We still have to be in the studio. I think it's important to reframe that with we still get to be in the studio. We still get to be still get to be in the studio. Because it's we have the tremendous gift of being uh engaged in something where we get to take whatever's happening and do something with it.

SPEAKER_00: 34:55

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:56

You know, so comparing my recent experience with what it would have been like in a more you know traditional JOB, it would have been much more difficult to focus on whatever, you know, bullshit task or meeting or what whatever the thing you know would have been, as opposed to no, it's an opportunity to be able to take what we're experiencing on on every part of the spectrum of human experience and and actually take it into the work, you know. So I think that the I guess I'll I'll share a bit of the backstory. So this is a friend um from recovery. You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm active in the recovery community. I've been sober for a long time. I work with a lot of other people recovering from addiction. And this was somebody who I who I knew well, who I was working with, and um and he had almost three years of sobriety and he relapsed and he overdosed, and his his girlfriend found him in his in his bathtub. And um so I was shocked. I I did not see it coming. There's certainly people that uh you know I I know well in that space where I would be devastated to get that call, but wouldn't be shocked. This was one where I was absolutely blown away. I did not see it coming at all. And so just working through those feelings and that experience of grief and loss, and then also figuring out what do I do with this? I think is probably where where I would how I would answer that question. Like I think that there is utility to everything that we're experiencing. And I go back to this is where having a deep well of information, of, of, of books, of of peers, of friends, of of information, and and I'm gonna take that a step further and call it wisdom, yeah, you know, to really go back to to anchor us into you know what's true and what what is to be done with what's in front of us. You know, we we talk about this, and it's funny, I I I I um I wanted to talk about this book anyway. I didn't bring it with me. Of course you've got it. And I literally, the the excerpt that I wanted to read from it today, I turned right to that page. Like it literally right opened. And you've got a number of for those of us, for those of you watching, look at ties. I mean, this is this is something. I mean, look at this color coding. I mean, this is this is somebody who's intentionally going through a book and do these colors mean anything?

SPEAKER_00: 37:39

Yeah, it's just hoping that Nick Cave is watching and he's thinking that I'd like studying every word that he says.

SPEAKER_02: 37:44

And which clarify we're talking about Nick Cave the musician, not not the not the sculptor. Um but uh so this is from Faith, Hope, and Carnage, um, which is a tremendous book that we've referenced more than once um already. So he writes All my songs are written from a place of spiritual yearning because that is the place that I permanently inhabit. To me personally, this place feels charged, creative, and full of potential. And so this is somebody who's lost two sons, tragically, young. I think both, one was I think in his teens and one was maybe in his early 20s, I want to say. Yeah. And so this is somebody who's dealt with with grief at about the deepest level. I mean, I don't think there's anything worse than losing a child. And having watched my my parents go through that, I can, you know, just from an observation, you know, close-up perspective, I can I can attest to that. He goes on to write: perhaps grief can be seen as an exalted state where the person who is grieving is the closest they will ever be to the fundamental essence of things. Because in grief, you become deeply acquainted with the idea of human mortality. You go to a very dark place and experience the extremities of your own pain. You are taken to the limits of suffering. As far as I can see, there's a there is a transformative aspect to this place of suffering. We are essentially altered or remade by it. Now, this process is terrifying, but in time you return to the world with some kind of knowledge that has something to do with our vulnerability as participants in this human drama. Everything seems so fragile and precious and heightened, and the world and the people in it seem so endangered and yet so beautiful. And so I spent time with this book. I reflected on it, journaled on it, like trying to take what I'm feeling, take what I'm experiencing, and take it into the work, you know. And so to me, it comes back to this idea of, you know, to his point about that heightened sense of mortality. I think a lot about what if this was the last thing I ever made.

SPEAKER_03: 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:00

You know, and how I really want to treat every day in the studio, everything I'm working on as though I'm gonna have 80 more years to make work, yeah, and as though this could be my last day in the studio. To keep one foot planted in in both of those spaces, I think is very healthy, you know, for me. And so in a phase, in a in a period where I am doing things that are completely new, I try to channel that into a place of sort of, I guess, fearlessness of, hey, what if what if today's my day? What if tomorrow's you know my day? What would I want to have at least made or tried to put out into the world or leave behind for whoever might find it, you know? Um, I think that's that's that's really, really important. So just that that mindset of like, we don't have to go back in the studio, we don't have to keep working, we get to keep working. So whatever we're experiencing, taking that into the work and trying to channel it in a useful way. We we get to be in a in a place, we get to do something where we actually can can use whatever's around us, whatever we're experiencing, and not just be dependent on, oh, I'm feeling good. It's 72 degrees outside, you know, everyone in my world has been nice to me so far today. Traffic was smooth, I slept great last night, everything. No, we can't our work can't be conditional. Our work can't be can't be based on things, you know, being right and being perfect. And furthermore, I think using what's in front of us to whatever good purpose we can is really, really important.

SPEAKER_00: 41:41

Well, I think what you said there about the work can't be conditional. The the time, the process cannot be conditional. Like that's if you want your work to be strong and to possibly stand for a long time, you can't put conditions around when and how you work. Yeah, you have to find a way to be disciplined with getting to work in the face of anything. Because shit happens. Yeah. This is like Nick Cabe just said, we're all playing a part in this drama called humanity. Right. Every one of us at different levels, with different possibilities, with different things happening to us or not happening to us. So we have to be unconditional in our work. Yeah. In the face of anything. And I think the mindset of you switching, me saying we have to get in the studio, that we get to be in the studio, that we get to make art. I think that's a fabulous mindset to always remember in the face of any adversity or any rejection or anything that may be coming. Gosh, well, I'm glad I get to go make work today. Because I I know myself, I don't know how I could handle anything very difficult if I wasn't an artist. Right. I don't I don't know how other people do it because I've always had the ability to go paint or sculpt when something terrible happens and use and channel.

SPEAKER_02: 43:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:24

Right. Now I've definitely channeled and handled those things in the very wrong, wrong ways in the past, but I've still been able to go in and take some of that out and put it into work. Right. So I that it's just I it's a magical, magical, supernatural thing. Yeah, absolutely. So learn how to make work in the face of all those things.

SPEAKER_02: 43:47

I would even say to take that a step further, it's it comes down to acknowledging we cannot, of course, control what happens to us, what happens, you know, in our world or to the people that we care about, but we do get to decide what that means. Yeah. We get to assign meaning to the things that happen to us. And so in this case, the meaning that I chose to assign was I'm going to be bold, I'm going to be more fearless, I'm not going to, you know, hold back. Yeah. And what the work may have been about initially. I'm I'm not trying to set aside my thoughts and feelings and emotions around that. I'm channeling it into what I'm doing. Because any anything that would come, especially in in in that period, anything that would come from the work from a place of trying to let me compartmentalize and set that aside, would have been an authentic to where where I was actually at in that moment. And I think the highest calling for all of us is to make the most authentic work that we can based on where we are and what's in front of us at that time.

SPEAKER_00: 44:57

Yeah. I'm 50 years old. I have no, I have no idea how many years I have left on this earth. It's probably less than I've lived so far. Sure. So when I'm in the studio and I'm making something that I am going, don't know if I like this. I have no idea where it's going. Well, then I have I'm still follow the course. Yeah. Because I don't, I want to, it's taking me somewhere. It's telling the work's telling me to go this way. So I've got to go that way. Yeah. Like you said, I don't know. What if in a few months my time's up and I didn't follow the course and I'm just kind of diddling around. Like, that's not how I, that's, but that's my chosen.

SPEAKER_02: 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:34

I don't want to, I don't want to live that way as an artist. I want to always be driving forward. So even if the work's taking me to uncharted territory that feels really uncomfortable and weird and not right, I have to trust my own intuition that I know it's telling me to follow the, follow its lead. Right. Because it's taking me somewhere. And I'd much rather go out having done that and what I may leave behind doing that rather than just following a script.

SPEAKER_02: 46:09

And having back to that idea of having a deep well to pull from, we don't know when we're going to need these things, but having them ready in advance, you know, exposing in the in this context, exposing ourselves to real wisdom, great thinkers that have come before us, and having those, those in the in the arsenal to be applied, you know, when when things get get a little gnarly and get a little rough. In your guest room, you've got your winter coats hanging in that closet, closet. You don't need them right now, but you will. Yeah. And you already have them. So that when the when the cold comes, when the snow starts flying, like you're you're prepared. You already have what you need to deal with the conditions that are put in front of you that you can't control, but you've got them prepared. You're you're ready. You know? And so that just goes to, again, something that a drum that we continually beat on almost every episode, but continue to expose ourselves to more ideas, more great thinkers, more things that we may. When I first read this, but I was like, that's a great idea. I could relate to things in the past, right? But then something happens in my present, and it's like, oh yeah, I've got that to pull from. Yeah. Let me let me revisit this. And it takes on, of course, a full new life, a full new meaning because it's there. Yep. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 47:32

A lot of good stuff today, Nathan. I think, and I've got a lot of things I'm thinking about right now, just in that conversation, and just being able to just continue to shape my mindset.

SPEAKER_02: 47:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:44

Because I don't know what's coming in the future, so that I'm really focused today. You know, I think that's part of everything that you and I talk about a lot just on our own, too, is like be so focused on today, what you're doing in the studio. Like we're looking towards where our work's going. We're following the lead of our work, where it's taking us, but we don't know what tomorrow holds. And so focusing on today. And I know for you and I both that's means our artwork, but also means our family life. It also means those things like giving attention to and love and nurturing our work, but also our relationships and our family life and those things too. And I think I just think that's great for all of you just having your head, like, what are you doing today with your work? Yeah. What is your how much are you learning? How much you're willing to listen and spend time really cultivating your relationship with you as an artist and with your work. Figure those things out. Sit down. I I do a I do a practice with all the artists in my mentorship program, and I have them write their own personal statement to themselves early on in the program. It's not an artist statement for your website, it's a personal statement for you. Why are you making your art? What is the purpose of yourself making your art? And what is your big dream for yourself? Yeah. It's that personal mantra. What am I doing here? What are you doing? What am I about? Yeah. But right, so I that's something I just encourage you all to do as we close the like do that. Have you have you really had that conversation with yourself? Have that conversation with yourself and then hold yourself to it. Yeah. Shoot for the stars.

SPEAKER_02: 49:21

But don't wait to keep making work. Yeah. These are these are exercises that evolve and change over time. And so understand that this is not something that you have to have dialed in and perfect before. These are these are concurrent activities. Absolutely. You know, so doing it and and and taking these ideas into the work and then listening. I've learned way more from the work than I have from what I sat down to. Both are important. Right. You know, but feeling like and I've I've fallen that trap at times. Okay, I've got to have this whole body of work. I've got to have everything dialed before I it's like, no, no, no. No. It's we just have to have a starting point. Yep. And then doing both of those things side by side will definitely support and enhance one another as you go.

SPEAKER_00: 50:12

Yeah, I think I think Miro said we need to explore all of the dancing sparks of our souls. And that was in that moment when he started making all the work. Right. He it he's exploring all of the dancing sparks of his soul, not just the one, all of them. So go do that. Feels like a good place to stop. Yeah. Thanks for listening, everybody. We hope you enjoy the episode. If you have any questions, shoot us questions. We'd love to uh we'd love to answer. We need to do a QA episode at some point coming up. So if you have any questions that you're curious about, about us as artists or about the art world or anything, we'd love to find answers for you. If we don't know them, if we only know a little bit, but we will ask and we will try to get answers from others. Make up answer interesting, or we will non-confinately, confidently answer.