The Fearless Experiment: Q&A on Unconventional Materials & Artist Mindset

What if the most exciting art materials aren’t on a shelf, but in a scrap bin behind the shop? We dig into the joy and rigor of working with nontraditional sources—HVAC steel, coroplast misprints, billboard tarps, even feedbags—and how renewable streams of “improper” materials unlock fearless experimentation. That freedom matters because it fuels the process-first mindset we lean on when the work gets messy, slow, or confusing.

We also get practical about longevity. If you’re early in your practice, we suggest a different priority: make more work. Let volume accelerate learning, then invest in archival strategies as your voice takes shape. Along the way, we unpack myths around “creative block,” share simple momentum builders, and explain why deadlines—real or self-imposed—can short-circuit perfectionism.

The mental game takes center stage too. We talk about protecting focus in dark news cycles, limiting social media’s pull, and treating the studio as a sanctuary for play. On criticism, we separate opinion from fact, consider the source, and extract usable truth without losing our footing. And we explore deeper currents—gratitude as a creative reset, the spiritual feel of making, and the honest cost of time traded for a few rare breakthroughs that make years of work feel worth it.

If you’re curious about unconventional materials, archival finishing, handling fear and doubt, and building a resilient creative practice, this conversation will meet you where you are and nudge you forward. Listen, share with a friend who needs momentum, and subscribe so you don’t miss what’s next.

Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast @tynathanclark @nathanterborg

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Chapters

• 0:00 Questions On Materials And Process
• 1:05 Top Three Nontraditional Materials
• 4:28 Coroplast Obsession And Experimentation
• 8:56 Billboard Tarps, Feedbags, And Freedom
• 11:23 Substrates And Surface Prep
• 15:24 Archival Concerns And Finishing Methods
• 22:05 Fear, Self-Doubt, And “Creative Block”
• 28:55 Running Into The Storm
• 32:15 Staying In A State Of Play
• 38:05 Handling Criticism With Perspective
• 47:05 Turning Down The World’s Noise
• 54:52 When Life Shows Up In The Work

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:07

Here we go. All right, Nathan. Back to some more questions. I hope you've got some good answers because I'm looking forward to uh, especially as we jump into some material processed questions here. We've got some really good ones that are really catered towards you, and I think this is great. All right, we're gonna start with your buddy Kirk Perdon. And his question says What are the top three materials either of you use that you can't buy in an art supply store? And how and why do you use them?

SPEAKER_00: 0:35

That's pretty fun. That is a fun one. Yeah, I I have not seen the inside of a proper art supply store for quite some time. I should have worn my uh my Home Depot shirt. The uh they gave me one the other day when I was I spent so much money there. This was for the sauna build, so that's probably why they're like, Do you want a t-shirt? I'm like, Of course.

SPEAKER_02: 0:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:57

So I I could I could talk about this for an entire episode. So I'll I'll probably try to keep this as as quickly as uh as short as I can. So top top three materials. So what I have been really fascinated with lately is the I just cannot get enough of metal. And it's an interesting challenge because the type of metal, I do some metal casting, the type of metal that works for that, typically one has to pay for, like the copper. I I do buy scraps from a local electrician, but I still have to pay for it. So that would be one. I mean, the the the process of I I'm just a little kid when it comes to this, but the process of taking metal and turning it into a liquid and then watching it, you know, cooled into a solid, and then being able to work it with with uh patinas, carving tools, I just I can't get enough. And so I'm I'm really excited about metals in many shapes and forms, but specifically, I've been um getting a lot of scrap from a local HVAC company and using galvanized steel, uh, which is used for you know venting for heating and and uh and air conditioning. And that has been been really, really fun. You know, a lot of these materials I end up building. I feel like I was at a studio visit yesterday and I was sharing with with my uh with my friend that you know it's I have to build a relationship with these materials to really get to understand them. So my favorite material is one that I can get a renewable resource of. There's nothing worse than than finding something as I often do. Can't get instruction demo bins, and I finally get crack the code on how I want to use it or manipulate it, and I don't have any more. And then I got to start, you know, uh diversifying my my spots that I go and and and look in for trash. But so that would be one number two, Ty, in no particular order. Sorry, number two, Kirk in no particular order would be choroplast. I am absolutely in love with this material and thankfully have a very renewable resource from uh some friends of mine at a at a local print shop that have a lot of mistakes. So this is a material that's just corrugated plastic, but um, it's a material that like yard signs and that sort of thing are are made from. It's got a lot of other industrial applications as well, but that's where they're they're most found. I I joked about this the other day. I'm pretty sure I am, and if I'm wrong about it, I would love to be told that I'm wrong about this, uh, because I'd love to meet the person that would take this this uh this title, but I'm pretty sure that I'm the world's foremost expert, and I'm using air quotes here for for our listeners on how to manipulate choroplast for artistic purposes. If someone wants to join me in that, I will share some notes. Because it has taken hundreds, I might be in four digits now, thousand plus hours of of trying to figure out how to use this material, but it has so many applications, and I've used it as a predominant sort of foreground element in the in the sculptural work. I've used it as a back, it's it's it's it's just an absolute blast. But if you do want to try that, just buckle up for a lot of wasted material and experience. But as I've said before, you know, that is the the benefit. That's why I love working, and there's other reasons why I like working with with discarded and trash material as well. But that's that's one of the things I love about it is that it definitely makes the it gives me so much more freedom, it gives one, anybody, so much more freedom to just recklessly experiment without worrying about, oh, how much did I pay for this, you know, canvas or paint or you know, proper material that certainly costs a pretty penny. I would say last on that list would be uh tarp, billboard tarps, you know, also readily available everywhere, you know, anywhere they advertise, which they probably do wherever you live, you know, these billboards are made of very, very industrial, robust uh tarp, that uh vinyl uh tarp that can be manipulated in a lot of really, really fun ways as well. So that's been a reoccurring and will continue to be a recurring element as well. Feedbags, I get some feedbags from my local, uh one of my local farmer friends. Those are a blast. I could go, like I said, I could go on forever and ever.

SPEAKER_02: 5:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:01

Um, how and why you use them. I use them because I love to take something that was discarded and discover what it could be. I love taking something that's had a past life as something else and trying to give it new life and and enter, continuously enter new materials into my sort of verbal vocabulary or artistic rather vocabulary to be used in a variety of different combinations and ways. Because the combination part, I mean that's really where the magic happens for me is it's not just material, it's materials. You know, how are these different characters in the play that I'm you know writing in real time, how are they gonna interact with one another? Are they gonna get along? What's the dynamic gonna be? It's uh it's great, it's great fun. So thanks for asking that. All right. He also asks, what is your preferred substrate to work on? How do you like to prepare the surface for your pieces? You want to take first crack at this tie? Because you're using some unique material as well right now.

SPEAKER_01: 5:53

I mean, I I can't, I don't really most 90% of what I use is I purchase through art stores for the most part. Yeah, but uh, you know, I do use yarn and I do use string and and things that I buy at fabric or craft stores, uh, which isn't traditional, but it's not really from Home Depot or anything. But then I also use a lot of things like uh Kills primer and stuff that I'll mix with raw jet with clear gesso and paints and things just because it gives it a little bit more of a a matte feel to things that I that I really like in my work. And um, you know, other than that, there's really not much other material-wise as I'm looking around at stuff, trying to get the idea of what am I using that's not from the art store. No, most of my stuff is all from the art store. Now I'll use white out and different little things to you know have little hints of stuff in my work and things, but other than that, I mean I'm preparing my surface usually with uh clear gesso. And it could be a mix of clear gesso with primer, with a paint color just to give it a little bit of a tint. But that's usually if I'm not working on raw canvas, I'm that's what I'm preparing my surfaces with. Yeah. Oh yeah. Vintage book pages is something that I use a lot of that I'll use that I'll use as texture underneath things or existing on pieces. So that is something that is not an art store item.

SPEAKER_00: 7:14

Yeah. Yeah.

unknown: 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:16

I already spoke to it in the first part of the question, but I think for for me, I'm gonna reframe the question a little bit. It's not so much how I prepare the surface, it's how I finish it. That that is really what I've spent the bulk of the last, you know, whatever, five years is figuring out how to take these non-art material materials that in many cases have been, you know, scraped, carved, burned away, melted. You know, uh a lot of a lot of the work in process is is very fragile. Um, this actually speaks to another one that's coming up coming up next. But um actually, you know what? I'm just gonna ask the next one. Yeah, let's see if they they pair well together. So uh Susan Sainsbury asked, she loved the Ursula Fun Ridings Guard episode. Thank you. Go check that out if you've not listened to it yet. Yeah, that was really cool to hear her response to uh to that. So, since you're using a lot of foul materials, are you considering the archival quality? I hear a lot to be mindful of this, wondering your takes on it. So, yes, I think about that a lot. And again, pairing with Kirk's question, for me it's all about how I finish the work. So I've over a lot of time and trial and error and pain and frustration figured out how to finish the work. And I use a product, it's a polyaspartic product that basically provides a uh a clear exoskeleton around everything. So, Kirk, I'm not really thinking about how I prepare the work or prepare the surface. It's all about how I finish it so that it is, you know, very, very archival and it's it's UV stable, non-yellowing. And so it's it's pretty bulletproof, you know, when it all gets gets said and done. People always come in and they, oh, I just want to touch it. I say, go right ahead. It is it is bulletproof. You can you can toss it around. I have. It's uh it'll it'll stand up. So that's how I think about it. But Ty, I'd like to hear you speak about just that archival element of that question as well.

SPEAKER_01: 9:00

Yeah, I you know, I always advise artists and I say, in the beginning, don't worry about being archival. Just make as much freaking art as you can. And as your career grows and as things start to move, you can start considering archival qualities at that point because it'd be really easy for you to bog your mind down with how to make things archival that you may be sculpting or building or painting or whatever. And it's going to take away from you just being free and creating in the studio. So I would say for years, I didn't worry about archival. I just didn't give a shit, to be honest. I just want to make as much work as I could, and I didn't have money to be as archival as I would want to be as well. So, you know, buying some uh really good matte finish or satin finish or whatever would cost me 30, 40 bucks for a little teeny bottle that I couldn't even put on a big piece. So now you're looking at 120 to 200 for some archival finish, and that's canvas for me, or that's new paints for me, or new oil sticks, or whatever. So in the beginning I didn't really worry about it. Now I definitely put a lot more time into it as I have a lot more work out there. I've figured out how to coat and how to protect things that need to be protected within my work. So, and honestly, there's a few of us whose work is gonna last for the next 600 years. And there's a lot of us whose work is not gonna be around to even worry about. So if you get to the point, start worrying about it. But in the beginning, just make as much art as you can, period. That's it. That's my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_00: 10:34

Yeah, we're I say it's all the time. We're not experts. Go ahead and raise your hand, Ty, and and and remind us that you indeed are.

SPEAKER_01: 10:40

I have no interest in calling myself an expert on anything. I'm an expert on some things, but I'm I'm a I am a learning expert.

SPEAKER_00: 10:49

I am a learning expert. Yeah, I mean, when it comes to you know mastery, at the end of the day, we just have to be we uh what I'm what I think about all the time, let me rephrase that. When it comes to mastery, what I think about is mastering my own process. And of course, a big part of that is making sure that it does stand the test of time and and is indeed archival. But I think that I just want to piggyback on what you shared, Ty, like especially early on, most of it wasn't, and it didn't need to be because it wasn't what it was ultimately going to be, right? I just wasn't there yet. So you can waste a lot of you know mental and emotional energy trying to worry about something that doesn't matter, depending upon where you're at in the process and where your your career arc is at, you know, overall for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 11:31

And you know, if you're using a lot of non-traditional art things to make your art, well that's not a lot of it's not meant to be archival. So that's where Nathan had to figure out well, how then do I make some of these things archival? Now, if you're using traditional art supplies, a lot of them are meant to be archival or have qualities within them that make it easy to make archival right away. But if you're using non-traditional, you're gonna have to do research, you're gonna have to do some studies, you're gonna have to do a lot of experimentation to figure out how to make these things archival correctly as well. Because it's really easy to think you can coat something in some type of resin that isn't meant to really do what it does, and then it becomes really yellow and you go, shoot, just mess that up. So it's a there's a lot of experimentation and playing to figure out those things depending on what type of materials you're using.

SPEAKER_00: 12:27

Yeah, that that's that's a big part of what you're paying for when you buy proper supplies, is you know, they come with instructions. They've they've been studied by the manufacturer. Yep. If you're doing all that studying and experimentation on your own, take good notes and make sure that you're paying very close attention to uh everything, every material, it's a matter of studying and and all right, how does this behave during the making process and how does it behave you know over time? That's been a great benefit of some of the earlier work that that didn't sell. Is I get to keep a close eye on it. How's this holding up? You know, years and years later, and can then take that forward, obviously. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:04

All right, let's talk about feelings. Yeah, feelings, emotions. We're we're good at talking about feelings. We've gotten made fun of a few times on on uh social media, this podcast for having a lot too many feelings. I've had a few people that have said, you guys are too feely. It's like, what? What are you talking about? Maybe you need to go get a charge of your feelings. Uh I try, I try not having them, and it just didn't work out.

SPEAKER_00: 13:30

Hey, you know, almost every day I I have some for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 13:34

Well, let's jump into Flux Art Studios question. Tammy Hammond. Tammy asks, how do you push through fear and self-doubt? How do you overcome or move through a creative block? So we'll give some short answers here, but my big suggestion would be to go listen to our three-part series on the book Art and Fear, where we really, really dive into those things in in a lot of big ways and a lot deeper than we could answer in just answering your question. So, Nathan, you want to jump at it?

SPEAKER_00: 14:04

Yeah, well, I think, you know, the the I'd like to start with just identifying that idea of a creative block. And I think that this comes back to really being intentional and conscious of the agreements that we make with ourselves, the things that we agree to be true and hold as a as a as a thing that exists. I choose and have chosen to not acknowledge the possibility of a creative block because I don't feel like that is a belief that benefits me. If I'm thinking about, oh, am I, oh, is this, is it, is it, you know, if I'm always looking over my shoulders, is this the moment? Am I am I am I in a blocked, you know, moment, uh, I don't want to be thinking about that. I don't want to be looking in my rearview mirror, you know, for potential threats that probably aren't really there. And so the answer though to the question, regardless of what your your your belief or opinion on that might be, uh, how do you overcome or move through? Keep working. The work always leads to the next thing. Always, always, always. So not working because we're inspired, because we're motivated or you know, flying high or in flow, those moments are fantastic. When they come, they're amazing. And you know, when they come, it's thank you. Uh okay. It try to keep it going, you know, for as long as possible, but we need to acknowledge that those moments are brief, they're fleeting, and they are not to be dependent on. So whether we feel like it or not, whether we feel creative or not, the act of being create in the creative process, the act of making is what always, for me anyway, always leads to that next aha moment, the next breakthrough.

SPEAKER_01: 15:51

Yeah, each each of those things that you've asked in your question are all resistance. Fear, fear, self-doubt, and creative block. And when it comes to creative block, creative block isn't something that exists on its own. It's not just a thing that's like there and just gets in your way. No, it's you, the person, the artist, that is allowing something else to set inside that mirror mimics creative block. Like I personally do not think creative block exists. I think that's just another false myth of people that people have put out into the creative world when they have other exterior things that are affecting their energy in the studio, their energy when they're creating or writing or whatever they're doing with their artistic endeavor. So I would say if you just keep working, like Nathan said. I mean, and I know there's moments where you go into the studio or you go to make something, you just nothing feels good at all, and you don't want to do it, or you feel like nothing can come out. Well, just freaking start scribbling. Do a still life. Jerry Salt always says, do something different. Do something you don't usually do and let it bring you back. Draw your studio, sketch your studio while you're sitting in there, sketch your house, go sit outside, do some plain air, draw some trees. Well, I'm an abstract artist. Well, so what? Do something to get your mind back into focus for where you're going. And listen, we all have a million things in life that are going to affect us in the form of resistance that is really easy to tell ourselves, oh, I've got creative block, I can't come up with anything. Well, it's because of all these exterior things that are pushing in on you and causing you to find something to get in the way of why you're not really making work. So I would just say, just make, make, make, read, I don't know, go sketch, go do something that's different that will bring you back into where you want to go.

SPEAKER_00: 17:45

Yeah, if we, and this may be just a matter of semantics and and the reframe that we've agreed to, but if we just reframe creative block with moments when things aren't working, then I think it's really helpful for me anyway to just acknowledge that these moments are going to happen. They are a necessary, just a natural component of this of this whole deal that we've agreed to, you know, pursue. And so I think a lot about, you know, am I being a bison or am I being a cow? You know, bison, when a storm starts, they run into the storm, uh, which causes them to minimize the amount of time that they spend in inclement weather. Cows run away from the storm, which maximizes the amount of time that they spend, you know, in the storm. And so if we acknowledge that the storms are coming and they're gonna keep coming, and so are the good days, so are the clear sunny days. Let's try to work through the storm. Let's try to like lean in as opposed to backing off. Because I feel as though if we back off, if we try to spend less time in the storm, we're ultimately just delaying the amount of time that we spend in the place that we don't want to be.

SPEAKER_01: 18:57

And I would say self-doubt likes to say, hey, look, I'm creative block.

unknown: 19:02

Right?

SPEAKER_01: 19:02

Because when when things aren't working, we're usually really doubting ourselves.

SPEAKER_02: 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:07

And our confidence is low, our self-esteem is low, we're not happy with ourselves and what we're doing. So all of a sudden, that self-doubt likes to creep in and go, Hey, creative block, here I am. You can't do anything. There's nothing coming. There's nothing. So I would say, man, just figure out that thing. Like Nathan always likes to talk about his mantras, or I like to talk about the notes that I have written on my wall or the quotes in my studio that I can just go look at and read and kind of center myself again. Meditate if you need to. Spend some time in silence, just like clearing all those thoughts out of your head, and then just go make work. Force through the difficult time by making, and it will always take you right back to where you should be. Okay, jumping over to the next question from Shnejana, which is her nowness on Instagram. And she asks, How do you keep yourself in the state of play? How do you silence the voices when they start judging the work suddenly with thoughts like, people are not gonna like this, and any other insecure type thoughts?

SPEAKER_00: 20:10

It's a great question. It's a great question. I think for me, it starts with trying to live in awareness and that begins and ends with asking a very simple question, which is what which voices are here? You know, I think a lot about excusing the voices from the room that I don't want to be there, and they pop up all the time, all the time, from all different, all different places, voices that I don't want in the room, voices that have no place in the studio or have no place in the art making process. And so it starts with becoming aware of and just just a general feeling of I don't like how I'm feeling right now. I'm sensing a version of resistance, and then taking that objective, sort of whatever third-party perspective on, all right, what is Nathan experiencing right now? What is it frustration? Is it fear? Is it self-doubt? And then the next layer of that becomes whose voices are these? Because they're not mine. You know, I think that when we begin to own a thought or an idea, I am fearful, I am doubtful, I am not sure if this is gonna work, I am afraid that people aren't gonna like this. Every time we say that, we are owning that fear or that version, that whatever, that whatever the fear-based emotion is. It all comes from that same, you know, ugly family of fear-based things. And when we can get down to which voices are in the room, then and only then can we be clear about which ones need to be excused. And so I say that all the time, out loud in the studio, when I get to that point, is hey, thanks for stopping by. You're excused. You may go now. You know, we've got to be kind of the bouncer at the club. You know, I you know what? You don't belong here. You're killing the vibe. The voices, the people in the club who do belong here and are having a good time and being nice to each other, they get to stay. You, person who's causing trouble and isn't contributing anything of value to what we've got going on here, you can you can leave. You know, and sometimes they'll leave just by being asked. Sometimes you've got to have the big, you know, bulky bouncers that are willing to grab somebody by the shoulder and sort of you know escort or carry them out. Whatever, whatever's required, but that's that's the move, you know, for me is becoming aware what's here, does it belong? And immediately when I recognize a voice, a feeling that doesn't belong in the room, asking it to leave. You may go now.

SPEAKER_01: 22:40

I need a if anybody of you have seen the film Inside Out, the animated film that came out a few years ago, I need an inside out of Nathan's head in the studio. I would I would love that.

SPEAKER_00: 22:52

There aren't enough characters in that movie to represent everybody. Although, actually, you know, when you really that's a that's a that's a great, that's a great, great example. You know, there there probably are because it really does come down to you know, anger has a lot of different, you know, masks and faces that it puts on, but ultimately, you know, we know what it is. Fear, you know, same thing. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01: 23:15

Yeah, I would say I I've done a lot of self-work over the years uh that has really helped me get into the place where I'm constantly in the state of play. Like I just am so focused and so confident of my work at this point and where I'm going and what I want to do with it that I feel like I'm always in that state of play. I haven't felt out of a state of play in a long time, to be honest. Even with work that didn't work out over a long period of time, I've still stayed confident in that state of play. And I think I think for me, I think that's number one, it's just growing, getting older and gaining wisdom from knowledge and experience over the years. Um, and I think two if you're struggling with thoughts like people are not gonna like this, then spend a lot less time on social media is a very big suggestion for me. Um post on Instagram, keep your visual journal of things that you're doing, but don't scroll. Don't spend time reading all the comments and thinking that anybody that comments is uh an authority figure on whether your work should be liked or not by the public. I think that's something that is extremely distracting for us as artists today. And so I've really, over the last year, I've spent a lot less time scrolling on Instagram and focusing on what people may or may not be saying about my work. I use it as a journal. It's just a visual journal, and it's a place for me to connect with other artists and talk. I take no authority from the likes, the dislikes, the non-likes, the viral videos, the non-viral videos for where my work's going. So I think I really think that would be helpful for all artists.

SPEAKER_00: 25:02

Yeah, Ty, I I love that you talk about what I heard, and I just want to really like highlight what I heard you just say for for all of our listeners. You know, you you you you said it perfectly, but play even when it doesn't work. And and to me, to really break that down, that comes that that really that really does come back to prioritizing the process over the result. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. So you can you're continuing to remain, to choose to remain in a state of play regardless of what the work right in front of you may or may not be telling you. Maybe it's not playing nice. Maybe it's not giving you the you know the warm fuzzies and the aha light bulb moments of hey, we're on the right track, but continuing to play in spite of whatever result may or may not be happening in that moment. Yep. We're moving these around in real time. So on Air Producer here is trying to coordinate these better than my past self did when we were organizing them going in. But this this pairs really well with with the previous topic. So uh Scott Allen, who's a neighbor of mine, just just right across the way, awesome, awesome person. Uh, love Scott and his family. The question is how do you handle criticism? Not offhand comments, but the type that comes from people you respect in the art world. So I'll just share the sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek answer that gave him. Uh, my answer is poorly. I receive it poorly. I crawl up on a ball in the corner in the fetal position and convince myself that nothing's working, nothing's ever gonna work. I'm kidding. I'm I'm half kidding. Um, Ty, you deal with this way better than I do because you've been doing this longer than I have, and you've helped me a lot with how to really get to a point. Um it's much better than it used to be for sure. But what advice would you give to people who are more affected than they would like to be by these types of comments or feedback?

SPEAKER_01: 26:59

Yeah, I mean, criticism is opinion, it's not fact. It's an opinion coming from a single person and their view, their reaction to your work. And everybody's different. Everybody likes different things. There are people that absolutely hate my work. You know that literally say, What is this garbage? You don't know art, you're not an artist, you're, you know, this, this. And I usually just respond by sending them the definition straight out of the dictionary of what art is. But it's like, listen, it's somebody's opinion. So for me to really now we're human, so words hurt, period. Like they're little arrows, right? They're little tiny daggers that hit us and just cause us to question ourselves, whatever. But at the end of the day, what if that person just hates the type of work you make? Okay, there's work I don't like out there in the world. Now, I may not air it in a way that others do because the internet is a great way to be an asshole, you know. So I kind of take anything I get online as a grain of salt. It's like, okay, they don't like it. Period, boom, next person. Now, it's probably gonna be pretty rare for most artists to get criticism from art world people. Like that's a rare thing. Uh you know, you may if you now if you're pitching it to somebody, there are plenty of Instagram art critics, you know, that are doing their little P with the artwork behind them, and somebody will say, Talk about my work. Well, in that case, you're inviting it. Yeah, you're inviting criticism, whether they like it or not, you've asked for it. So you have to take that for what you asked for. Now, if you do a show and the newspaper does a write-up on you and they criticize your work and don't like it, well, do what Jerry Saltz says. Go home, look at the criticism, look at your work. What did they say? Is there any truth to this? And really intelligently think through it and then use it to move yourself forward. Oh gosh, I do agree with what they wrote about. Wow, they were right on. Or maybe they weren't ready for your work. Maybe they don't understand it. Maybe they have a completely different opinion on different types of work. Well, they criticized it, so there may be some truth in it. Now go back and deduce, is there truth in this? Is there not truth in this? And then move forward to the next thing. So now understand this is difficult for a lot of people. Some people it's easy, some people it's hard. But at the end of the day, there's probably a little bit of truth and every bit of criticism. Now go back to your studio and think about it, process it, and then move on to the next thing as quickly as you can. For some of you, that might be a week, Nathan. Might be two weeks, who knows? But it's like figure out a way to get back on track and not let it affect you. Like I said a few minutes ago, spend less time on social media reacting to all those things.

SPEAKER_00: 29:56

I'm down to like a day or two now. It's actually really. Perfection. Yeah, you you mentioned something really, really important, which is just consider the source. You know, even just the nature of Scott's question is very insightful. Not offhand comments, but the type that come from people you respect in the art world. So I always go back to consider the source. So I'm going to speak to all artists that are affected by every you know negative comment that they may receive. Consider the source. Go to their page and ask yourself, uh, are they even sharing their work? That tells you a lot right there. Are they even making work, which is another great question, if they are making work and sharing it? And this might sound kind of brutal and kind of mean, but look at what they're doing and ask yourself, is this the is this an opinion that matters? And in again, that's a little that's a little harsh, but in in doing that, you will quickly eliminate 98% and realize it belongs in that bucket in the offhand comment, uh, i.e., not a source that is to be listened to or depended on, while also, to your point, Ty, continuing to from a healthy emotional place, consider all right, is it is there truth in this? Because oftentimes there is. And then we get to decide what to do with that, if anything. This goes back to the uh subjective nature of art, you know. Yeah, if I'm trying to lose weight and the scale tells me that I'm 240 pounds, or for everybody that uses a metric system, which we should be here as well, 117 kilos, whatever. Um I I can't argue with the scale, right? That that's an objective number. That is how much I weigh in that moment, right? I can't say, well, actually, you just you just don't get it. You just don't really understand. No, it's that's how much the thing weighs, that's how much it weighs. That's it, that is objective fact. That's not art. It's subject, it's completely subjective, it's completely in the eye of the beholder. And just acknowledging that, you know, even when it is, does come from a you know respected, you know, critical source, that that's just their opinion. That's just their their feeling about it, that's just their belief about it. And the best critics, Jerry included, often says, What do I know? That's just my opinion. Yep, just my opinion. And that's that's what it is.

SPEAKER_01: 32:14

Well, and I think Nathan, this is something that I've really have ingrained in my head. If somebody criticized it, they saw it. If they saw it, it's because I put it out into the world for somebody to see. So I have to be willing to accept positive and negative criticism by making the decision to put my work out there. So this goes all the way back to what are you putting out there?

SPEAKER_02: 32:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 32:40

Are you putting everything out there or are you putting the pieces that you're most confident in out there? Because if you're putting pieces you're confident out there, then you'll be like Helen Frankenthaler says, let her rip. Say whatever you want. Because I'm so confident in the work that I'm putting out there that if you criticize it negatively, it doesn't matter to me.

SPEAKER_00: 32:58

And before our metric uh system using audience corrects me, I'm aware 240 pounds is way closer to 109 kilos, not 117. Way to search it real quick. Yeah, I totally did. I was back like myself. All right. Next next question comes from Ann Parkin. I'm wondering how you navigate, not getting deflected by the noise of the outside world and its dark times, to keep the focus on your work and your passion for the work. Before you answer that, Ty, I'm gonna pair this with another question that's related, takes a little bit different approach. Uh, Scott King asks, how much does emotional response to what life serves up manage to appear in your work? Why and how or why not?

SPEAKER_01: 33:41

A great way. This is becoming a theme, and navigating, not being distracted by the noise of the outside world, just turning the outside world off when you can. Because I know you can't always do that, but you can make decisions to do things and take breaks from things. Social media, the news, I don't know what it is that is your feed, right, on your antenna that's coming in from all these places, right? That's going to help that. Because obviously there's a lot in the world that is very dark and is very distracting and can cause us to crawl in a hole as a human being and just freaking a not want to exist because we feel like we can't do anything. And as an artist, part of our makeup as artists is we want to do things to help change things and to influence people and bring our emotions and our opinions and the what we feel into our work, out into the world to have another voice out there for those. So it is difficult, but I will say this: every artist in history has been through the same type of dark times and had outside world pressure that is negative and distracting to their work.

unknown: 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:48

Um, my generation, we have not been in a war or lived through a war, but many of the artists that I love and have read either served in the war or were living in places during one of the world wars and affected by things in very heavy, heavy, heavy ways. So I think they still made work, even in those moments and even in those times. So it's like figure out ways to turn off the things for a time that are keeping you dark and make your studio your sanctuary that is the silent place where those things aren't bothering you, where those things aren't distracting you from your work. That doesn't mean your work still can't be a voice that is vocal in the things that are bothering you in the outside world, but figure out a way to make your studio that silent place where those things don't affect you and your passion for your work.

SPEAKER_00: 35:39

Yeah, that's such an important point. You know, we get to decide, you know, what we let in, how much we let in, that that is a choice. And it's a choice that everybody gets to make. You know, I'm I'm not here to tell anybody how much they should or should not be tapped into, let's just say, current events and the news cycle, for example, or just you know, the the the BS that your feed might be might be putting in front of you. But I am here to tell you to pay attention to how it affects you and make an intentional choice as a result, you know, really, really pay attention to, all right, how did I I've thought about this a lot. I'll just use a simple example of you know spending time on on social media, especially if I'm doing it during a break where I'm grabbing a bite to eat or or whatever during during a studio session. I start to pay, I start to pay attention a while back. How do I feel you know when I'm close when I'm shutting it down and getting back to work versus how did I feel beforehand? Yeah. Maybe, probably, I'm better off reading a book or something that I know is going to pour into me versus suck life out of me. That that's again, these are choices that we all get to make for ourselves. But my my point that I'm trying to make is just to be intentional and become aware of how is this affecting me? You know, and again, you know, really coming back to is this enhancing my experience? Is this is this is this something that I'm using, is it pushing me forward or is it pulling me down? Yeah, it's a great, you know, question to ask. The follow-up question that that Scott asked, I love that because again, it's a it's a very similar question, but a little bit of a of a reframe that I really like. Yeah. How does the emotional response to what life serves up? Um, how does it appear in the work? Uh, why and how or why not? I mean, it all appears in the work, whether we're aware of it or not. You know, I think that you use that great word that I love how you mispronounce antenna. Uh, the the you know, we're we're going to be receivers, we're going to be feelers. I mean, you know, a lot of great artists that we've discussed on the podcast before describe us as, you know, professional feelers. You know, it that that is what we're doing. We're absorbing everything that that that's around us, whether we're conscious of it or not. And so I kind of take a very sort of holistic approach to it all finds its way in the work, some of it conscious, a lot of it not. But I think that we spoke about this, I think, in the yeah, one of the episodes that we did um at your place, Ty, a few episodes back. But just what whatever life is putting in front of us, that is is fuel. And and being, you know, omnivorous in our consumption of of fuel, meaning that we can absorb nutrients, we can use whatever is in front of us, even when, especially when what's in front of us is unpleasant or painful or uncomfortable. That's a part of the benefit of being an artist, of being, you know, being able to create things and use whatever we're feeling, whatever we're experiencing to good purpose. For those who have to sort of put on a smiley face and you know be a certain version of themselves, you know, professionally, they don't have the luxury of doing that. We do. We do have the luxury, and it is a luxury of taking what's in front of us and being able to channel that into the work.

SPEAKER_01: 39:15

Okay, this question, Nathan, comes from Abstract Planet Art. I don't know their name because it's not on their Instagram page. So um, but I will on our YouTube video, I will have everybody's handle when I'm at when we're asking the questions in the YouTube video. So if anybody wants to find them and you're watching the YouTube video or on Spotify, you'll see their handle come up if you want to find them on Instagram. The question is what has been your most challenging piece to create and why? How did you overcome any obstacles or doubts during its creation?

SPEAKER_00: 39:46

Yeah, this was actually a comment that, or maybe a DM from like a month ago, and I asked them if it would be okay if we answer it on this on this episode, so I'll make sure and speak to this. I mean, all of them. There you go. Yep. No, I I think um if if I had to pick one, I would probably say I made a large-scale piece uh at a live event. This was about three, maybe two and a half, three years ago. Not long ago. Yeah. And um, it's interesting because I put pressure on myself to have a completed piece done in a three-day span. And this is probably, I don't know, seven by twelve feet, you know, something like that. And so because it was a festival, you know, there are people coming by, there were people, oh, I can't wait to see how it turns out, you know. And I was like, that makes two of us. Because I didn't go in with the plan, you know. I can't turn that outside pressure off. Right, right. Like that person probably is gonna be walking by, you know, tomorrow or the or the day after. So I think, you know, we've talked about this in previous episodes as well, but there's there's tremendous benefit in deadlines, either real or imagined. We've talked about the benefits of you know, creating self-imposed deadlines even when they don't exist, because when you think about how productive, you know, we're able to be in periods where we are preparing for a show, and it's like, that's this is this is when it needs to be shipped. This is when the work needs to need to be done, you know, no matter what, there that that does a lot to really you know force us to keep pushing forward. And so to that second part of the question, how to overcome any obstacles um during its creation, the the answer is it doesn't become optional. It's it just it wasn't optional. Like I'm going to keep going, I'm going to keep pushing forward. I'm not going to, you know, micro-tweak and obsess about the little things. I'm going to short circuit that perfectionism that I struggle with every day and get to a place where, hey, what's next? You know, always forward. And it's funny because I didn't think of this uh until this moment, but this piece actually hangs in a in a business that I that I frequent. Um, a friend of mine, it's uh it's where I do my my sauna and and breath work. It's a place called Sauna Strong in Minneapolis. So go check it out. DM me if you want to meet me there for uh for a session. But um it hangs in the lobby there, and so I see it way more than probably anything I've ever made. I see it when I'm in a different place or a different mood, different times of day, different lighting. I've spent a lot of time looking at that thing, and it's one of it's one of the things that I that I'm most proud of. It's one of the one of the pieces that I love the most. In fact, there's there's elements of that that I it actually kind of bothers me because I'm like, I have tried to replicate that effect dozens of times, and I haven't been able to because it was just in the it was the conditions, it was the fact that it sat out overnight, the fact that the dude just you know did what it did. Yeah. Um, you know, so many different environmental factors that probably contributed to you know what I'm referring to specifically, but it's what's next, always forward. That's that's the solution.

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

I don't really have like a most challenging piece to create, but I have moments that are most challenging for me to create in. And it's usually there's two times. There's one when I'm jumping to a brand new body of work, new ideas, new elements, new materials and things, it's really challenging in that start because I I know where I want to go, but I have no idea what I'm really doing or going with yet. So getting that first few pieces kind of in a spot where I'm moving in is really challenging. And I love it. I love that challenge. The next one is once I get rolling on that new body of work, there's a point where point A starts out one way and all of a sudden it really starts to morph into something else, maybe halfway through that, and that's where the work is telling me to go down the road. I get these future ideas in my head, and then it gets challenging to stay my course and not try to jump ship and go to where all the new ideas are leading me. So those are the two things that are really tough for me. So we talk about it all the time. That's where journaling really comes in handy for me, so I can start really writing down all these new ideas, stay on track with where I'm trying to go and tell, and really start to kind of put these other ideas in the parking lot for later. We've got a series of three questions to end our emotions uh side and our feelings side from Carly J. Hall. And we'll just go through these one by one, Nathan. The first one, she asks, what part of your process feels the most like worship to you, even if you wouldn't call it that?

SPEAKER_00: 44:32

Carly is a friend from real life that I've known since high school. So thank you, Carly, for the questions. These are great. I would call it that, and I think it's it's all of it. You know, the part of creating the process of making art, it really is a microcosm of life itself, where it's everything. And regardless of what your you know belief system or or spiritual practice may or may not be, um, our beliefs, broadly speaking, apply to every hopefully apply to every aspect of our lives. So all of it feels like worship, all of it feels like you know, communing with with my creator in a way that is a very fundamental part of the process for me because it's another way for me of getting out of my head and surrendering myself to the work, surrendering myself to the process, surrendering myself to something greater than me. And when the work comes from that source, it's always going to be better than whatever sort of self-engineered, self-manufactured thing that I could, you know, come up with on my own.

SPEAKER_01: 45:51

I love that. And yeah, I mean, for me, I mean, I call my studio my sanctuary and my playground.

unknown: 45:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 45:58

I'm a I'm a very deeply spiritual person, very worshipful person. And for me, there's every ounce of what I'm doing in the studio is worshipful for me. I mean, it there's just to me, there's just nothing like it that I've done in life. I mean, there are feelings I get when I'm making art that feel the same as me standing in the Grand Canyon and just going, wow, and having that awe moment of like, there's just something that hits you inside that is so spiritually deep and attune to something when you're in a moment, whether that is standing on the cliffs over the ocean or looking at full-blown Milky Way in Big Bend State Park in Texas, and you're just like, What? And you just feel it inside, that buzz, that chills go. Like I have those moments in the studio every day when I'm making art. Like, how can that not be worshipful? Like, there's just something that exists when I'm doing and being the person I'm created to be. And whether it's silent, whether I have music on, whatever, I open the doors and I walk into this space and just something feels so real and alive and true that I can't escape it.

SPEAKER_00: 47:13

What you're describing is gratitude. That I mean, that's what I'm sure. That's what I'm taking from that. And and I'm actually gonna address a question that we were gonna skip also from Carly, but sorry, Carly. The emotion. Uh she asked some great questions. We're gonna address two more in a moment, but um the she asked, what feeling or emotion, you know, do we do we chase during um our time in the studio? And that's for me, that's it. You know, it's if I can, if I can get back to gratitude, even when things aren't working, which is most of the time, you know, to be, ah, God, you know, the frustration, all of it, this isn't working, this is all crap, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but I get to do this. Like, this is amazing. I get to make, I get to do, I get to make something today that I've never made before. It might not be good. It might be the best thing I've ever made. And it doesn't really matter if I'm prioritizing process over result, but it's just that gratitude, that feeling of like, wow, I I get to do this. I get to be in this place where I get to be frustrated, I get to have things not work. That in and of itself is something to be thankful for.

SPEAKER_01: 48:23

Well, and the the definition of worship is an act of devotion, showing reverence or giving honor to a deity or some sacred being, whatever it may be for you, like through a variety of activities, whatever it is. And it's like I I gratitude, and for me, also, there's also a part of understanding. Like when I'm in, when I'm in the zone and I'm making art and this worshipful act for myself, and there's this, I'm searching for understanding amidst that. There's like this communion that's happening between myself, the work, just the spiritual energy that's coming from what I believe, and I'm searching for understanding. And this also goes back to the question of shutting off the darkness in the world and those things that are just pounding you in every way. Like I'm turning those things off, but I'm also searching for understanding in it. And I'm having this communion and these conversations that are just existing in the ether, and I'm asking my whys and my hows and how do I, and I'm hoping that all of those things come out through my work as well because of that communion, because of that meditation and that those moments I'm having with myself and the work and what just exists all around me.

SPEAKER_00: 49:34

I'm thinking back to our Ursula episode where we talked about the unanswerable questions.

SPEAKER_01: 49:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:41

And I'm reminded of what we discussed with that, which is, you know, understanding we're going to ask a lot of questions for which, in Ursula's words, there are no answers. If there were answers, they're not going to come from me. Yeah. I, you know, I like I these aren't the types of questions that I'm interested in asking and pursuing and sitting with and bringing into the work are not questions that I immediately, if ever, will have answers to. Yeah. So if they're going to come from something or somewhere else, it's a pretty good practice to try and get and stay in that place as much as possible. All right.

SPEAKER_01: 50:20

Next question from Carly. What part of creating feels the most costly to you? And what part feels like a gift back to yourself? You go first. Man, I mean, what part of creating feels the most costly to me? Time. Probably. I spend an enormous, an enormous amount of time creating, right? That takes away from everything else outside the studio. And so I think there's this cost of for myself, that's a sacrifice of time. Like I know to get where I want to go, time is going to be my biggest sacrifice. Things that I'm doing with other people outside of my studio, whether that be my wife, whether that be my family, my folks who live close, as they're aging and getting older, whether that be my friends who are in other places or close, like time. I mean, that's the biggest sacrifice that artists give that's costly to them. Because is it what is making art really costing? It is costing time. You know, I'm 50 years old now, or sorry, I'm 51 years old now. And it's like, if I look back at all the time I have spent in the studio making art, I'm probably gonna go, holy crap, what did I miss out on in that time? What have I missed out on relationship-wise? Uh doing other things-wise, whatever. So that's one thing for sure. Now, am I mad about that? No, I'm not, because I know what it takes. And I think I've figured out a way as I've gotten older to really balance that too with everything else. I could still do a lot better, but I'm figuring it out. Um, what part feels like a gift back to yourself when I know the work is going where it's supposed to be? To me, that's the biggest gift. When I look at the work and I go, yes, that's where I wanted to go. That's when I go, oh, the last four years were all worth it. Just for that one piece, the last four years were worth it. That those are the moments when I go, thank you, art. Thank you. Or when somebody has an emotional response to the piece, obviously. That's one that any of us understand if a viewer has a very emotional deep response to your work, you can just kind of throw up your hands and go, I'm done, I can retire. That's it. I mean, you won't. You will keep it.

SPEAKER_00: 52:46

You won't, but yeah. The idea that you could is kind of nice. Yeah. How about you and I think, yeah, the the the most costly part is also one of the most rewarding parts for me, which is less self. It is it is painful to peel, peel back the layers and come face to this comes back to your previous you know point and an earlier question about you know the self-work that you've done to get to a point where some of these things are even possible, but you know, less less self, you know, and that is painful. You know, coming face, it's costly to come face to face with the aspects of my very flawed human nature that rear its ugly head in numerous ways on a daily basis. And so like that that hurts. You know, it's it's very painful to come face to face with you know some of these things, you know, growth, transformation, call it whatever you want. These things don't, these things are pricely. These things don't happen just because they seem like nice ideas. These things happen as a result of a lot of discomfort and a lot of pain. And for me, it's very painful to realize like, oh, this is an aspect of my my personality. I'll I'll give an example. You know, I've got a very predominant achiever gene, which, as most you know, aspects of our personality and our you know, mental, emotional, and spiritual wiring, there's there's two sides of every coin. There's very positive benefits that have and continue to come from being driven, you know, the way that I am. But the dirty underbelly of that is you know, believing the lie that I only have value because of what I do and not because of who I am. And that's painful to realize. It's painful to realize, like, oh, I am in this sort of transactional you know, economy in my mind around I'm only I'm only okay today if I've done something you know of value. And in the studio, in the in the art making process, we don't get those payoffs, you know, every every single day. I would just echo what you said about the gift back to ourselves, the book, the gift back to myself. It is the payoff, you know, and the belief that they're coming, not on a predictable schedule, not any you know, predetermined time, but they are coming. They have come before and they will come again. Those moments of like, oh that's it. That's it, you know. And I think it's just the the belief that they've come before, there will be more, and just continuing to work and do the next right thing in spite of whatever feedback we may or may not be getting in the moment.

SPEAKER_01: 55:33

Yeah. Well, we're gonna wrap it up here with our last question, which is if your art could whisper one thing to you while you're making it, what would it say? Keep going. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 55:45

Keep going. Yeah. Keep going. That's it. That's it. I mean, you know, we talk, we've talked a ton, and we'll, I'm sure, in future episodes as well, about the the relationship that we have with the work, the conversation that we can and should be having with everything that we're doing. The listening portion is really huge. So in order to hear a whisper, one has to be listening very carefully. If we're not listening to the work, there's no way for us to hear any version of a whisper or any version of communication. I love how that question is phrased, you know, understanding that the work usually does whisper, it rarely shouts. And so it starts with listening and being in a place where we're able and willing to hear, you know, whatever it might be saying, specific to, you know, the piece or body of work that we're working through at that time. But broadly speaking, that's what it would be for me. Keep going.

SPEAKER_01: 56:41

Yeah, my if my art wasn't whispering to me all the time, I would think something is really wrong. And I think my art is, and I I've talked about this on a lot of our podcasts, like all of my dead heroes whisper to me through my work. Like it's just something that I've built into my own listening and my own subconscious now. It's really baked into my subconscious, I think, how much emphasis I've put into listening to the whispers of my work on a regular basis. While I'm working on it, when I'm not working on it, as I'm walking by it, it's constantly whispering to me. You need to go this way. Here, try this, go this way. Hey, uh Willem and Lee and Cy and Robert would have done this. You know, Anthony would have said, do this, try this. Like it's constantly whispering. It's all the people I look up to are whispering. I I mean, there's moments where I have my friends talking to me in my head because I know what Nathan would say and what V would say and what Eric would say and what Jane would say, you know, so it's like in my head, I've got all these different opinions and voices and whispers that the work is constantly just like, you know, just throwing things at me. But that's something I baked into to also help me shut out everything else, fight resistance, not let those other things come in and influence my work in my studio. And man, I put a lot of time into that meditative focus on letting the work whisper to me where she's going, where she wants to go, where she wants me to go back to or move forward to. So uh spend some time this week in your studio or your space, just listening, do it. Just get a journal out or just sit by yourself, get a cup of coffee, cup of tea, glass of wine, whatever. Just sit, look at your work, ask it questions in your head, let it whisper to you. But just take some time doing that this week. And I think it'll help with all those other things that may be bogging you down in this dark time and economic hardships and all these other things that we're all somehow or some way struggling with as artists and as human beings. And maybe it'll help you kind of reflect back on and be able to move forward with your work. So we hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for your questions, and we will see you soon as we still have quite a few questions left to go through in another episode. Bye.