Art Friendships That Fuel The Work

Three artists. One exhibition. A decade of friendship that turned into fuel for making braver work. Ty sits down with Vy Ngo and Eric Breish to explore how creative community shapes everything—from the courage to apply, to the way we process rejection, to the rituals that help us recover after the lights go down.

We start with origin stories and the rush of seeing our pieces hang together at Art Center Waco’s Amplified show. Then we dig into the practical spine of a thriving art practice: how to pick the right opportunities, why research beats volume, and how strong documentation (clear, well-lit photos and short videos) becomes your first studio visit. We talk about building a cohesive submission that tells a story instead of tossing in disconnected “greatest hits,” and we unpack the difference between galleries that simply move product and those that invest in your evolution.

The conversation gets honest around critique and growth. Safe feedback from trusted artist friends can be uncomfortable and necessary—pushing you to clarify intent, separate your voice from influence, and keep evolving. When no arrives, confidence returns to the work itself. One pivotal story turns a painful rejection into a better fit with a smaller gallery that encouraged risk and led to the most personal show of a career. The lesson: alignment and patience create momentum.

We also name the quiet crash after big openings—what we call post‑artum depression—and offer tools to navigate it: nature days, spiritual or wellness practices, journaling, and time with people who truly understand. Finally, we celebrate DIY paths and authentic networking. Show up for spaces you love without treating every hello like an angle. Be interested before trying to be interesting; your people will find you.

If this resonates, follow, share with an artist who needs it, and leave a review so more creatives can find the show. Your support helps us keep bringing real conversations—and practical tools—to the studio.

Vy Ngo: @vjngo_art

Eric Breish: @eric_breish_art

Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast   @tynathanclark   @nathanterborg

Watch the Video Episode on Youtube or Spotify,

https://www.youtube.com/@JustMakeArtPodcast

Transcript

Meet V And Eric

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Just Make Art. Apologies for the delay in this episode. Nathan and I have both been really busy with a lot of things and trying to find our time to get together, and we just can't find it. So I decided I would grab two of my closest artist friends who I'm currently showing with at Art Center Waco here in town in a large work exhibit uh called Amplified with 24 other artists and have a conversation about artist friends and applying to group shows and getting rejected and all those things. So I just want to introduce them real quick. Like I said, there are two of my closest friends. There's Eric Breisch, who creates hypnotic holographic works on metal, aluminum, and copper and steel, where light itself becomes the medium. Eric uses industrial tools and unconventional methods, and each mark is strategically placed to absorb and reflect light. I'm telling you right now, when you're in front of these pieces, there's a dimensional shift that just happens as you move around his work and observe it. And he layers it with transparent paint and varnishes and finishes it all on a glass-like surface that deepens color and dimensions in ways that Canvas just can't. He trained under metal art innovator Andreas Nautabaum for 15 years, and his work is currently represented by galleries across the U.S. And then my sister, my art sister, one of my absolute besties. We've known each other for I think around 12 years now. We've shown together multiple times in group shows and in our own two-person exhibition a few years ago that got glass tire top five here in the state of Texas. Vino. Oh, do I love my V. She was born to Vietnamese refugee parents in rural Pennsylvania and spent decades as a physician, she still is, before returning to her creative work in 2015. She's a painter, a sculptor, and an installation artist based in Austin. Her work opens space for dialogue around memory, cultural identity, and healing. Her pieces have been collected by institutions from Austin City Hall to Texas AM. She's been featured in publications including Glass Tire, Tribeza, and PBS Arts in Context. She's a member of Icosa Collective in Austin and an active force in building more inclusive and diverse voices within the broader art community. It is with absolute pleasure and a full heart of love that I bring you this episode and my conversation with V and Eric. I hope you enjoy it. And Nathan and I will be back soon with an incredible episode coming your way in a few weeks. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Okay, let's jump into this. All right, are y'all you guys ready?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Mm-hmm.

How We First Connected

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Okay. Well, welcome everybody. I hope you enjoyed my little intro about some uh dear friends that I have today with me. And I I'm I can't even explain how excited I am to do this and to share these two wonderful artists and individuals with you. You may remember Nathan's podcast uh episode he did with Eric a little while back. So make sure to go back and watch that if you didn't listen to it. But we man, I mean, I don't even know where to start because there's just so many levels of friendship here. And as I stated in the intro, uh Eric and V and I are all showing together for the first time. So V and I have shown multiple times over a lot of years together. And so it's so exciting to be able to show with Eric as well. And so I just thought this would be an incredible time to have a discussion about us showing together, us as friends as artists. And let's just jump right in and kind of go back to the beginning and we'll just kind of bounce around here and just kind of share about how the three of us first met and when did we know that this would possibly be a friendship that was really gonna matter to our art lives. Uh, feel free anybody to jump in.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

I mean, uh, we've known each other for almost 10 10 years.

SPEAKER_04 4:18

Yeah, a little over 10 years now.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

A little over 10 years, right? And I think it was through social media. You know, we connected, we were both in Austin, and we set up a coffee date. And it was really just crazy how instantly we clicked, not necessarily just as artists, but as people, yeah. Um, and it was from that moment the conversation just flowed so effortlessly, and we just vibed energetically so well that I knew I was like, oh, we're gonna be friends. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yeah, that's that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever told you this, Ty, but so I guess it was, man, I was in your program in 2021. So this must have been 2023. I went on this weekend little getaway with with my uh with my ex, and we went to dripping springs and we rented this little cabin. And I remember one morning we were sitting out on the balcony, and we I was looking through Instagram for whatever reason, and I ran across one of your videos, and I remember showing her your video, and I said, Oh my God, I love this artist, I love his work, but I also love the way that he is making videos and sharing his videos. Um, and I I would watch them, you know, on a on a it would always come up in my feed. And so I shared that with her, and then literally, I want to say it was just, I don't know if it was a couple of weeks or a month or what, but uh your first announcement for your program came out. Uh, and it was like it was kind of like the universe opening its doors, and it was like, here's the first program ever that I'm going to, you know, open it up to the public and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a mentor. And I remember, you know, applying for that. And so we didn't start a friendship as we knew each other. We didn't ever meet in person. Our our first meeting was actually through your program. Um, and I knew that I was, I didn't know what I was gonna get out of that, but I knew that just through your content and through what I thought I was going to get from the program, which turned out to be much different, was was going to be really special. So yeah, we didn't start off on like a friendship term really.

Showing Together At Art Center Waco

SPEAKER_04 6:38

Yeah, it's interesting how these things work when you're kind of brought together with with other artists because you you just never know. You know, are you gonna click? Are you gonna fit? Like we're all different people. And but having that common denominator of art and a passion for something, I think for V and I, when we met the first time, you know, it's just hey, let's hang out. We're both artists, we're both pretty new to Austin, let's grab a coffee, whatever. But I think pretty quickly we both realize that we're very serious about these aspirations and dreams that we have with art, you know, and we're both just in the beginning of the merging level of art and making work. And so we're just like, yeah, we we're gonna really need each other here, you know. And then the other dynamic, Eric, for you and I was totally different, where we start off in a mentoring and mentee kind of situation, but then post the program, it just grew into for me, you know, this is somebody that I only that I worked with, but that I really trust where they're going and what they see with art. And I think that kind of built, we had a lot of other things in common that we enjoy outside, which V and I do as well. But I think that denominator was like, okay, let's kind of start discussing these things and talking about art and doing these things more than the relationship that we started with. And it's just it's so exciting. And, you know, you lead that to all of a sudden we all three have work in the same room at Art Center Waco and the amplified uh exhibition. And so what does it feel like? And this this is general, it doesn't have to be this show, but what does it feel like to walk into a room and your work is hanging alongside artists that you generally love and respect?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

I mean, for me, it was uh it was the reason why I applied for this show to begin with was because V brought it to my attention and said, hey, you know, this show is gonna be in Waco, and I automatically knew that Ty was going to be a part of that. So, you know, I jumped on that opportunity and and I knew that it was going to be special. I had been to Art Center Waco, and that's how I actually met V, because we didn't cover that. I met V through the show that you had at Art Center Waco as a as a you know a two-person show. So I met I met V during that that point in time. And so I was already familiar with that space and I knew what it could what it could look like and what it could be. And I think all three of us really love to work big. And so the amplified even concept was was such a a cool thing for me. And I get to show with my good friends. So walking into that, I knew it was going to be great, but um, yeah, it was everything I thought it could be, and and even more.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

To talk about how we all met and became friends, you know, things happen very organically, and I always uh love how art does that. You know, when you expand your world, you expand your world in many ways. It's not just in regards to you know the people that you meet that like your work, it's also the community of artists that exposes you to um that you normally probably would never have the opportunity. And Ty and I had the show at uh Art Center Waco with us that in 23. And I'll never forget meeting Eric. He had just been coming on a road trip delivering artwork, I believe in Colorado, and he surprised you Ty that he was gonna be there. Um, and you know, when you're both six foot two, six foot four, the the presence of the two of you in my five foot one frame um is you know hard not to notice in a room, right? And so I was like, who is this person that's just as tall as Ty and has this big presence? And, you know, um you introduced us. And Eric and I organically afterwards connected on Instagram and then organically started to develop a friendship of our own, you know, and it's really been this beautiful evolution of these relationships that we all have come together as friends. Um, and it's allowed us to really kind of join in in our journeys together. And I have to say that's honestly the most beautiful part of showing with the both of you is it's not just about mutual respect of our, you know, our work, but also a reflection of um our journey together.

Friendship Versus Isolation In The Studio

SPEAKER_04 11:19

When I think something too, you know, when you think about sharing the room uh not just with other artists, but artists that you deeply respect and care about as friends, it's the it's not just about the work hanging, right? It's about there's conversations that happen around the work hanging with those friends and the art, those artists, right? So, like when we dropped off work, you know, I came and helped, you know, you and Eric when you were dropping work off. And but then we're all of a sudden we're talking about the work and we're talking about those things, you know, there's this camaraderie and this, I don't know, it's like a real existential, like spiritual moment that happens between those artists where then when the work is installed, then you're walking around it and you're looking at the work with each other, you don't even have to say things. Like there's just something that exists in that space and you feel it. You know, you look at your work on one wall, and then you look across and you see V's work, and then you see Eric works on the other wall. And there's just this feeling that's just like, man, I feel really good right now. Like this is what it's all about, you know. And there are moments when it's just you're you're in the room with younger artists that maybe have looked up to you and been a part of things that you're doing and they're sharing with you, right? There's this mutual camaraderie among artists that's just really, really special. And I want to jump into this next question with kind of that thought in your heads of a lot of us out there feel really isolated, especially early on as artists, right? We're we're all when we start out very alone and we spend a lot of time alone. And so what role has the friendship of other artists played in keeping you in the game? Because art is something that a lot of people give up on and move on to other things because it's so difficult.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

I think as artists, we create an isolation. We're very much in our heads a lot of times within our work. You know, it's it's it's hard to turn off, right? I mean, we could be out in the world and we're still thinking about the studio space or what we're currently working on, and it's it's almost obsessive. And when you can find other people, and it's really important, I tell a lot of young artists this is like get out, go out in the community, go to shows, go to places that you know are artists that you respect, you know, are going to be at and try to connect because it's really essential for artists to nurture their themselves with community because it is so isolating, but also it's a way to promote growth, to feel inspired and to be able to also expand in dialogue. Because I think it's really important to be able to talk about our work, our process. It allows us to see and reflect back, you know, and and and and and give us information on our own work, but also learn from others. Um, so I think it's very important. I think it's an essential part of our our practice to develop and create those connections and that sense of community outside of our practice.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Yeah, that's a really important topic for me that I've been feeling a lot lately. And V and I were just kind of like discussing that previous to getting on here. I think it is essential to have your own isolated time to create in. I do now know and think that the balance of that is really important. And like V said, you have to get out there, you have to go to shows, you have to network, you have to get with your friends that are creating. You know, but there's there's a certain like danger in that for me, because it's really easy to get stuck in in that side of things and not make an effort to get out and uh and and cultivate those relationships because you'll find yourself all of a sudden, like for me, it was a decade that I had kind of isolated because and I thought about that this morning actually, when I was journaling, I I thought, why did I really appreciate the the isolation in the beginning? Well, it was because I was trying to break away from people that I wasn't aligned with, and and I didn't know what it meant to be in a circle of people that I did align with. And now that I've had time to, you know, kind of break away from what I was experiencing and now found myself and I cultivated my life that I wanted. And now I've started to have friendships like with both of you. And I realized, like, oh my gosh, there are people out there that are like me. And when I do connect in that way, it is such a valuable experience that now when I'm too isolated, I really miss that. And I really, I really long for it. And I went through this training this week um around sound healing. It didn't really have to do with art, it was sound healing with a with a group of very like-minded individuals, and it was very intense and it was such a life-changing experience for me that when I came out of it and back into my isolation, it was like, oh no, uh, I'm I'm back in it. And now I'm starting to see what those experiences mean. And and you guys can probably relate like the post-show blues, right? You you build up your show, you have this great opening, everybody celebrates, and then you go back home to your studio and you're back into isolation. So I think this is a really important topic that a lot of artists probably struggle with, and they don't even know that they are struggling with it because I didn't know. Um, and you don't know that until you go out and you build that life that you really want.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

Well, and the importance I I tell my artists all the time like the number one most important thing is your is your work, is working, making the work. The second most important thing is your network. So the two go hand in hand. One is vital, spending that time alone making the work. The next thing is if you're not building a network, there's nowhere for that number one to go.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

And also, you're only as strong as you. And that's not very strong. If you don't have others around you, those like-minded artists, those people that you trust and you're willing to be vulnerable with with your work, you're not gonna grow outside of who you are in that moment. And if we're only doing the work by ourselves and we're not learning and listening around another community of artists that's able to feed into us, we only we're only this big, you know. But having those other people around us help us grow as artists, help us grow as individuals too. And I think one of the most important parts of that is being able to be challenged or pushed by those artist friends. Like you need that push, you need that challenge for them, you need that gusto. All of our time is different in the studio. Some of us need a little more of that, that energy to push us because our time is minimal. Others have a whole lot of time, so it's easy for us to fall into apathy in moments, you know. And so have you ever been pushed or challenged in any way by artist friends that may have been uncomfortable, but it was very necessary. I know I have.

unknown 18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

I'm gonna let Eric answer that one.

Honest Critique And Growth

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Well, what's really funny is the two artist friends that challenged me the most are on this call. Um, so like this is a really great topic to discuss and in very different ways because uh Ty, your program was a great example of that. Like I had already been a full-time artist for I guess it was almost five years by the time I took your program, and I was in this space of kind of like being stuck in a way, and I felt like I needed to have something that like really shook me up. And and I didn't know what your program was going to be like. But when I got into that, the biggest thing that I took away from that whole experience was not only community and network and getting feedback, but the permission to go out and explore and create. Um, and I wasn't giving myself that permission and I didn't really know how to. And I felt like after that program, everything opened up for me. And you challenged me on those one-in-ones to really go out and try something new. And yeah, you've been successful in the things that you've been doing, but you are admittedly kind of getting burnt out on that. So, what are you going to do next? And this is a marathon and not a sprint. So, how does that last? How do you keep evolving and challenging yourself? Um, and that was a huge moment for me. So, you've been a real center for uh that kind of pushing and exploration in a very good way, and you have to learn to have thick skin, take criticism, and I think that's where V comes in because she's very honest, uh, and uh and not she doesn't hold back, and I and I really appreciate that about her. And we were driving home from the install from this show, and she uh we were talking about I'm doing this body of work right now that I haven't really shared, and I'm about to go to Scottsdale and and show it for the first time, and and um you know, she really pushed me in some ideas about what is it about? How do you separate yourself from artists that have come before you that are using that medium and all of these things that I've been struggling with personally and trying to kind of rationalize that and and to hear somebody else come in and actually you know push those buttons, it's so important because it makes you confront that. And as much as you want to defend, I I had to sit back and be like, okay, I hear you. And I need to think about that. And we all as artists have to grow through those painful moments. And where we start a body of work doesn't mean that's where it's going to end up. It has to evolve and you have to start somewhere, and that evolution is just going to happen over time if you choose to stick with it. Um, but in the beginning, it can be really confronting to hear somebody challenge you. And I think you just have to take it in and really hear it for what it is.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

I think it's a different experience when you are taking feedback and crit from someone you feel safe with. You know. Like friends that are artists that you know fundamentally it's the friendship, right? And it's the respect. And then you have this journey that you both are sharing. And then it so because of that, it allows you to understand that you know it's it's like how we love people. We we want the best for them, we want them to grow. And sometimes we have to give the hard truths, right? But it's coming from a place of love. It's the same thing with the friendships that we have here with artists, where we can be, you know, truthful with each other and we can understand that it comes from a place of love because we want to motivate each other to grow and to think beyond ourselves or to ask the hard questions or you know, to look at the darker parts of ourselves that we're not maybe addressing that, you know, are keeping us, you know, holding us back in our practice. So, you know, I think I think having that feedback loop with people that you deeply have a connected uh relationship and friendship and open communication and a place of safety and a place of uh real care, I think is essential. Um and it's very different on the flip side for like a lot of art students, right? You know, that go through school and they have weekly crits with people that they aren't really close with. And that can come in from a very different place and have very different experiences and and be traumatic in a way, you know, that it keeps them from wanting to maybe explore these things or keeps them in that self-criticism loop that all of us artists have, right? But I think that's the difference is that you know, finding those people that you feel safe with, that you can have open communication with and and you have deep care for allows you to have those conversations in a place that is fruitful and feels uh nurturing and doesn't feel um um so critical.

Selecting Work And Submitting Smart

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Can I jump in and say something? Of course, because what she's saying brought up something for me where you have a lot of different mirrors that you're always as an artist, you have your different friends and sectors and all of this kind of stuff. And so you're receiving all of this different feedback from people from different angles and perspectives, right? So I think it's important to know that you know you can respect a lot of people's opinions, and those are just one angle from which you're going to receive. And if I can say it doesn't mean like that opinion doesn't mean that that work may not be successful, right? Like it could be commercially successful, and it doesn't have to necessarily, but you have to know where you're trying to receive that information from art history. Like, are you trying to be the first and important in art history about how that's going to be looked upon in in decades? Are you just trying to pay the bills right now? And this body of work is going to do that thing. So you have to take all of this criticism in or opinions or whatever and filter that through down into what you're trying to do and what you're trying to be and what this work is trying to be. And I think there's a lot of different ways to look at it. Um, so you have to be careful about what you receive and how you receive it, and don't let the opinions of others also stop you from doing the things that you want to do and ultimately know where you want to go. So I just wanted to throw that out there.

SPEAKER_04 26:03

Yeah, you can't take everything as truth, right? Like you still have to go back and sit in your studio and look at your work, like you said, and filter it all and say, yeah, I mean, well, I don't really agree with Eric with what he said there. Oh, maybe a little bit of what V said really is true about this. Well, why do I not agree with that Eric's saying? Maybe there is true. I don't know. But we have to take that moment to go back, even with our trusted community, and still filter it all and look at the work and then make our own decision in the end. And it's like the his the history of art, that's why community is so important. You know, no big art movement started with one single person, other than the very first cave painter, the first person that drew a buffalo. That's it. Everybody else was influenced from that point on by the next guy that drove that drew something else, or the next woman that painted something else, right? I've got a whole bookshelf here of the Favists, the Impressionists, the Cubists, the Surrealists. They're all groups, they're all communities of individuals that got together and did this and talked and then went out and showed and then stole their ideas and influenced each other's ideas and went back and forth. And I know how hard it is for so many of you out there that are going, I don't have a community, I don't have anybody. The hard part is it takes work. That's what I tell artists all the time. That's the hard part. You may have to be the instigator when you're not an instigator. You may have to invite somebody to coffee at Whole Foods on Sixth Street. You know what I mean? You may have to be the person that's like, hey, do you want to meet? It just takes a little bit of gusto sometimes to take the first step. But I'll tell you right now, there are artists around where you are that are just hoping and waiting for somebody to go have coffee with. You were gonna say something.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Well, I was just gonna say, I think fundamentally everything is about curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Right? It's all about curiosity. How are you curious within yourself to grow? How are you curious in your conversations with your work? How are you curious in taking in someone's um perspective and asking further questions? Everything is always from a place of curiosity, and that's what's so great about art, because that's our job is in a way to foster curiosity, foster um questions that reflect back on a person that's you know taking the work in, as well as how other artists are like creating, like what's being curious about their process. It's curiosity is the common thread that we need to foster within every aspect of what it means to be an artist.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

And that curiosity really also extends backwards. And that's why I think all of us get along really well, because we have such a curiosity around art history and knowing what's come before us. I think that that's so important because you know, the more, and it's also it's also a double-edged sword because the more you know, the more you have to challenge yourself and the more that you have to, I don't know, I don't want to use the word separate yourself and and find your own identity, but the more education that you get, the more that you understand that it's harder to do things that have never been done before, or where you fit into the process. Or, you know, it's just it's not like in the beginning when you just sit down and you're creating from a space of pure enjoyment and pure curiosity. Now all these other things start to filter in and you're thinking about, oh my gosh, is this too much like this? Or where is this going to go to? And you know, there it's just uh the curiosity grows, and with that growth comes a whole new set of things to think about.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

And speaking of curiosity, I'm gonna use that for my segue into our next little section here because I know there's these are a lot of questions we get uh from artists out there that listen to the podcast, especially like how do I get in a show? How in the world do I select work that I might want to put in a show? You those are things that I mean, I'm literally filling out residency applications, and it takes me a week or two to decide what eight paintings I'm gonna submit because all of a sudden I get the eight that I think are the strongest, and then I go, then I look at them and I go, oh man, I need to go through my work again and pick some different ones. And then Mandy always tells me, you always end up using the first eight you came up with. So just stick with those. But then I'm complaining every night about what work I want. So thinking about when you're staring at a body of work and you're trying to decide what to submit, what's going through your head?

Documentation That Gets You Seen

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Research. Research, research, research. Like in a sense of like, it's not just about applying. I know some people think it's a numbers game. Like, if I apply to a lot, then you know it you can approach it that way. But I don't think you're gonna be as effective. I think it's really important to understand the gallery that you're applying to. Like understand their what artists they work with, what aesthetic, what narrative, what concept are they conceptual? Are they more sculptural? Are they more hyper-realistic and and narrative driven? Like it's really important for you to understand the gallery you're applying to or the program you're applying to, like look at their history. It's research is really important, just as important as learning art history. If you want to be successful in your practice, you have to really understand your body of work and how it will align with the right calls, um, exhibitions, uh, residencies, and gallery spaces. It's really important to know that because if you don't, you're just shooting in the dark and you're gonna get frustrated. And you're gonna and that frustration is that feedback that then you know creates a lot of questions that aren't helping you. So it's really important as an artist, I think, to one first, know who you are as an artist. Know what your body of work is about, know what what you know what it's serving or what market or you know, all those things. And then look at those things you want to apply to, not just as a, I just want to get into a residency, I just want to like, but really research them, you know, and and understand their history and and and what they're looking for. Because this is the thing, it's like it's not just you applying as an interview or an applicant, right? You want to make sure that they're gonna represent your work well, they're gonna support you in the residency the way you feel you need to be supported, and then also create potential connections to the network that they have that are already in that area of body of work that can potentially go further out, right? So everything is a stepping stone of opportunity. So, in order to set yourself up for success, research.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

So, question V. You find that open call that fits, right? The curator fits and is aligned with maybe the way your work is or what your work says, the galleries aligned, you've done your research. Okay, I'm a fit for applying for this show. I will have a shot, right? Because we there are artists out there that spend a lot of money applying and you don't fit. You're a you're a white male artist, right? And then that curator primarily works with female artists of color. If you don't do your research, you're applying to something that you're just wasting$35, right? So do the research to figure out. So then you find that that you're aligned with, that aligns with you. Now you have a body of work. How are you working through that process to figure out which pieces you're gonna submit?

SPEAKER_00 34:05

It's one, making sure that you have an understanding of how you want to present yourself. Do you want to present yourself with your best work or the story of your work? I think that's the thing. Like, you know, you can have many different works that are are like your best work, but if they don't feel connected in some way, they don't see a storyline, it doesn't allow them to necessarily make their own connections. Curators want to be able to make their own connections. You know, panelists want to want to see a body of work that encompasses all of you, you know, and and who you are as an artist. I think the other thing is um make sure you pick good documentation. I think that's the biggest mistake a lot of artists make is when they pick out their work, they don't take into consideration how well they're documenting their work and and and submitting the the the photographs that are gonna best show their work. Because we all know that work looks best in person. Yep. So you need to make sure you have proper documentation of the artwork and you pick good lighting, good pieces that like you know, um want them to see more.

Handling Rejection Without Quitting

SPEAKER_04 35:16

That that's massive. I mean, honestly, I cannot tell you how many artists' submissions get tossed out before they even get looked at because the photograph is terrible. And and I'm saying, as a juror for shows in the past that have had hundreds of applicants, and I get the I get the spreadsheet or whatever form that that gallery or space is using for me to be a juror and go through and select work, the first thing I look at is are those photos, can I see them? Are they clear? And honestly, I don't even look at anything else if they're not. I go through and I just delete those and then I go to the ones that are. Second thing, like you said earlier, the documentation as well, not just of the work. If you're not following directions and filling out the form the way that it asks you to, you're getting tossed in the bin and just passed over. And your work may have been stronger than other work. But if you're not gonna follow directions, it's not gonna get looked at. But man, oh, invest in some cheap lights or shoot in daylight. You can use your phone. Phones are getting better and better and better. If it's a large scale work, you're gonna want a camera or bring a friend over that's got a good camera. If it's a smaller scale work, you can use your phone, but you need to make sure that lighting is good so that it can be seen in the best light. That's the first, that's the first moment somebody's gonna see your work these days is gonna be in a photograph. Probably 9.9 times out of 10 now, before anybody has a studio visit, or anybody sees your work in person, they're gonna see you by a photograph. Make sure your photos are good. Important. Eric, you have anything to say on that?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Yeah, I never uh an artwork never leaves my studio, meaning digitally, without it being perfectly photographed for multiple angles, videos, like, and that should be part of your documentation process. Not only the words around it, but like every artwork that you take should have multiple views, should be videoed, you know, just so you have that, because once it's gone, or once um, you know, you've moved on to the next thing, like you rarely go back and take that time. And these like these sculpture pieces that I've been doing, I wasn't sharing any of them because I couldn't figure out how to photograph them in the right light. So I went and bought a whole entire photography setup, lights, backdrops. I already had a nice camera. Um, but I played with that for weeks before I was capturing the photos that I was liking and before I presented that out to the world. So um you're really right about that. Like you've got to put your best foot forward, especially digitally now, because that is going to be the way that it usually is seen first. Uh, and and to speak to what V was saying, um, I think all of that is so true. And it also, it is also true about gallery representation. That same mode of thinking uh around how you apply to a show is the same way you apply to galleries for representation. Um it's almost the exact same process. So I just wanted to throw that out there for people that are like, oh, is that a is there a difference between the two? And and no, I think it's it's very much the same. You have to be aligned with who you're asking to represent you, you know, who are the raw the artists on the roster, who is the is the curator, the director. Um, and all of that research prior to is is so vital because I wasted a lot of time in the beginning, just like you said, throwing it out in the dark and it never came back to me. And it wasn't until I started focusing down on those those aspects where it started to return.

SPEAKER_04 39:07

So we apply, we apply to things, and we don't get in. And even though I I'm sure I can say this for the three of us, we don't have as many expectations as maybe we did earlier on, where every time you apply, you're like, This is it, I'm gonna get it, this is it, yeah, I'm gonna get it. And then you don't, right? So you kind of learn, I'm applying if I get it, I'm excited. If I don't, that's just the way it goes. But rejection sucks. When your heart and soul are wrapped up in your work and you're trying to get it out there, and you're trying to build your career, and you're trying to do these things, and you're applying and you're getting rejected, it's really, really difficult. So, talk to me about rejection. How do you process it and how do you just keep submitting, anyways? Because I know a lot of artists younger, it's they're devastated when they don't get into things. So, how how do each of you process those moments and handle rejection?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

I think what's so great about the art life is that it really is just a reflection of real life. It really is. It's such a teacher. It's such a teacher in all the aspects of who you are as a human being, right? And so it's really important for us to learn, you know, how we take that feedback in life in general. Um, I, you know, I'll never forget the first time I applied to something, I applied to it from my phone with a you know, a picture of the piece. Totally didn't expect anything. Just to say, ah, this looks like something I would love to try for. And I did it. And it was like the within the first year of my practice, like real early, forgot about it completely. And then like a few weeks later, God noticed that I was a semifinalist, and I was just like, wait, what? And I think because of that feeling that I had where I went in without expectation, I allowed myself to be surprised, but I also didn't set myself up for disappointment. I've learned in life that if you go with into things without expectation, you allow there to be more possibility. If you go in with expectation, you're limiting yourself. You're you're because you're only setting yourself up for one thing, either a yes or a no. So it's gonna be a disappointment, right? But if you approach it from a place of without expectation, even if you don't get it, you're like, huh, okay, well, maybe the curator had a specific idea in mind and saw all these works lined up in a certain way, and yours just didn't fit the narrative or the aesthetic that they were looking for, and not taking it personally, but more of a feedback of what could I do differently? Or maybe that just wasn't my opportunity. I really do believe that if you work, and like you say, Ty, always, it's about the work. If you really just focus on the work, the alignment of when the yeses happen will happen. Yeah. But you have to be brave and vulnerable to put yourself out there. And that's with every aspect of your life, right? Relationships, jobs, or whatever it is. You have to put yourself out there and be willing to risk the potentiality of it not working out, but being able to take it as feedback to, you know, more of a reflection of where you can grow as a person, where you can grow as an artist, or maybe just motivate you to, you know, keep going, keep applying to things, knowing as long as the work is strong and you believe in your work, then it will happen. But releasing expectation, honestly, is the biggest lesson for me in all aspects of my life. And it's uh really helped me navigate those um, those, those situations.

SPEAKER_04 43:13

I love what you said about doing the work because I think it's Sister Uh Maria Carita Kent that said it's the people who do the work all the time that things happen for. I don't know if there's just a magic quality in the people that are doing a whole lot of work all the time where things happen, but there is something about it. Um, and it's probably because their work reaches stronger moments at a more rapid rate than those who are not doing work all the time. And I'm not saying full-time 20 hours a week. I'm just saying when you have time in your schedule and in your being focused and making work in that time.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

Eric, how about you with rejection?

The Right Gallery Fit And Support

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah. I number one, you have to have the confidence in your work and your practice. And I've learned over the years, and I didn't have this in the beginning, but when I experience rejection, I just kind of fall back on myself and I re establish that belief in what. I'm doing and say, for whatever reason, because sometimes you don't know, you don't get the feedback, you don't understand why you don't get picked. Um, but at the end of the day, you have to believe firmly and truthfully in what it is that you're doing. And eventually, I do believe that you will get your opportunity to show or to share in in whatever way that might be, shows or you know, whatever that that that is. I I probably out of the three of us um have been the least experienced in open calls. I don't do a lot of open calls. Um and I don't apply for like residencies. And maybe we can speak about that. I don't apply for residencies because the type of work that I've traditionally done requires a pretty industrial setup. So I can't go to you know Canada and bring the things with me that I need to bring in order to finish work. I could probably start a new medium and just like play around and try, but it wouldn't be in the vein of what I do now. So I don't do a lot of residency. Uh I've never applied for residency, actually.

SPEAKER_04 45:18

Anderson Ranch, maybe you need to be applying for Anderson Ranch and get in there.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Talking about that, yeah. And more uh that the whatever that that that one is. But um, as far as open calls go, maybe there was a certain level of laziness when it came to that for me. Um, laziness and also maybe a fear of rejection. Um that maybe I got rejected early on, and I was just like, oh, I'm just not gonna do those anymore because I don't understand the process. But what it really turned into for me was, you know, I work with five different galleries across the US right now. And so all the work that I was mostly doing was going to those galleries. So I didn't even have a body of work to select from to be able to, you know, put those calls out there. So for many years, um I was just maybe telling myself a story that, oh, I'm I'm I'm being busy, and the only world that I'm really interested in is the gallery world. And so whatever I'm creating and doing, it's going to be just in those uh venues. And maybe that was the level of output because I don't do, you know, I don't create a hundred paintings a year, a hundred sculptures or whatever. That that number is growing, but it was limited in my output. So maybe that drove me from, you know, just not applying to those things. But in terms of rejection, I have a very specific story. I went to Dallas a couple of years ago. We went for a concert, we were killing time, we were walking through the the design district over there where all the galleries are. And we walked into this one really big gallery, and I met the director and I met the owner, and we had this great hour-long conversation. And I walked out of there like on cloud nine. I was like, oh, this is it. I got it. And when we walked out of there, we went to some other galleries and and we went into this one gallery called Ferrari Gallery, and it was a small gallery, and the owner was there, Deborah Ferrari, her husband Jim is also an artist. Um, and he was back in the back sculpting, and we had this great conversation. And um basically I left there. We had this conversation, and it led to, hey, I really like your work. Maybe you want to show with us. And I said, Oh no. Um, I'm talking with this other gallery in Dallas, and I was kind of high on my horse. And I we returned back from that trip, and I I had a conversation with the original big gallery, and they said, You know what? We we really like your work, but at this time, we're just it's not a fit for us. And I was absolutely crushed, and I was like, I had never been so sure about anything, and it and it really like sunk me for a couple of days. And I had this conversation with V when I went to visit her in Austin, and we had this long conversation about the the positives and negatives of that situation, and she said, Why don't you just have a con, why don't you go and have a conversation with that smaller gallery in Dallas and we'll see where that leads to?

SPEAKER_04 48:23

Why don't you crawl back to Deborah and Jim back?

SPEAKER_00 48:26

No, it was it, I remember exact this exact conversation. I remember this exact conversation because it was literally right after one of my shows that he would come into town for. And we went to a concert afterwards, and um then we like sat down afterwards and had some downtime and we were talking, and he told me all about it. And I remember saying, look, sometimes we think we know what we want, but it's not what we need. Yeah, right? Like we have these expectations of like what we think we want and what we where we'll fit, but like the universe and God, or whatever you want to call it, sometimes has different plans. And I asked, I remember asking you, I was like, Do you think you want to be in a gallery that wants you to make a specific type of work? Or do you want the support of a gallery that wants to push you and allows you to explore? Do you remember that, Eric?

SPEAKER_02 49:22

I do, I do remember that. And and I didn't understand that concept at the time because I wasn't sure what that meant because I was so used to the gallery telling me what they wanted. And what this taught me, and it was one of the most unbelievable lessons and also pathways for me, because I went back to that gallery and said, Hey, you know what? Actually, I would like to uh to show with you. And and so that was, I don't remember, it was a summertime. And literally they said, We have a show coming up, it's a group show in September. Would you want to be a part of that? I said yes. I brought work up. We had a fantastic opening, and I really jived with the other artists, which is a small group, um, and the owners, and we became really fast friends and fast forward a little bit. Um, they offered me a solo show, and that was in May of 2024. And that uh Ty, you came up for that show and you saw that that body of work that I worked on for a year to prepare for that was the most important body of work I ever created, the most personal, the most vulnerable. And the and the the gallery literally opened the doors and said, do whatever you want. It doesn't matter if we sell, if we don't sell, like put the body of work together that you want to show. And it was the first time that I ever got that opportunity and to really dig in. And what I found in myself through that show um completely changed the path of my career and my and my love for art again. And so that initial rejection that crushed me was also the thing that rebirthed me. It was exactly what I needed. And V said that I just didn't understand it at the time. Right. I needed the I needed the time to let it all unfold and process. So, other artists, if you're if you're out here listening, like let the rejection happen because the rebirth will happen if you love it. If you are absolutely, there's no other way that I'm going to live. There is no other path for me. You will be reborn through your own efforts.

Post‑Artum Depression Explained

SPEAKER_00 51:46

I I I will say on this whole evolution of our journeys, like I've I've loved watching um all of our individual experiences and journeys within it, and how we can see ourselves uh within that timeline. Um, I would say that being an artist is a journey in itself, and you're constantly learning. And sometimes artists want just to be shown. They just want to show their work, they're just eager, right, to have their work shown. What happens with that though is like learn from those experiences. Did you feel supported by the gallery or did they just not really know how to talk about your work to sell it? That's the other thing is finding galleries or people that know that love your work, that that that know how to talk about it, because you're not going to be there all the time, right? Um, and so like having that question of like that that that relationship, was it fruitful in all the ways that you wanted? Not just at the work show, but like in uh in in deeper aspects of of establishing a relationship. Also, you know, does your gallery make you feel like they're invested in you as an artist, not you as your work as a product? That's a very different thing, right? And and there's some galleries that are just going to be about the product and they know that they can sell it, and and that's okay. And that's totally okay. But does that jive with you as an artist? What do you feel like you need in your personal practice? Like, do you need an art, like a gallery that's going to want to cultivate you, want to create those connections for you outside of the gallery, institutional shows, or that have the network of collectors that like will take you to, you know, museum shows. Like there's all these other aspects of of of being in the gallery setting that I think you will only learn to grow as you get more into it and more depth into it. But also, like, yeah, like finding those relationships, like you became friends with them, the Ferraris, and you know, and and they really wanted you to explore and and expand your practice. And that is like that is really important, and that's hard to find. So kudos to you for that. But for the you know, artists that are listening, like think about these things, you know, as as you're on your journey.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

It's gonna echo that, like, but you do have to have that balance via what you said, that there's different galleries that support different things. And if you are a full-time artist supporting yourself in the arts, you absolutely have to have the gallery that is out there selling work because you can be with a gallery that is, you know, really into what you're doing, supporting you all day, do whatever you want. But at the end of the day, if you're not able to keep the lights on, to keep your mortgage paid, to do all those things, if you were relying on art for your income, unfortunately, you have to balance yourself in that gallery setting with the people that are moving the work. And those people that move the work don't always get the work. So you have to be somewhat, you know, in this flow of understanding all of those things and those relationships and and being okay with, okay, well, maybe they don't get me as an artist completely. Uh, and maybe they're only interested in really selling one particular type of work. And us as artists don't always want to go back and create the thing that sells. We don't want to, you know, in my in my I always say the circle painting, you know, I we get some success with circle paintings, and then we're like, we want seven more. And you don't want to go back and make those paintings, but if you want to create the body of work that you want to create, you have to be able to support it. And so if you have to make those seven circle paintings in order to, you know, make the next three bodies of work or keep your lights on or whatever, you've got to be flexible in that. And there's, I know a lot of friends that just refuse to do that. They're like, I don't care about any of that stuff. And you know, if you have the luxury of of deciding in that way, good for you. But a lot of us have to do the things that we need to do in order to survive, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

I think there's lots of different avenues. I think there's lots of different ways to be an artist. You know, and I I think not one um path is necessarily how another's path is going to be. I think ultimately at the end of the day, it's do you feel that you're supported in your practice? However that's going to look. You know, and and and knowing yourself well enough as an artist and understanding what aligns and and and how you can find that support, whether it be through community galleries, how you make your work, but also still feel in tune with who you are.

SPEAKER_04 56:39

When at the end of the day, you're the decision maker. You. You only you are the decision maker at the end of the day. And throughout your career as an artist, throughout this journey, you're gonna have multiple decisions to make as things start to move for you. And it's up to you on how you want to handle those decisions, right? That's not when the outside world influences it. You need to sit down with you and you need to say, is this the route I want to go in? Is this the route I want to go in? Now I'm not saying anything's wrong. We all have to choose, like Garrett said, how are we gonna pay our bills? How are we gonna make more work? We have to navigate that journey, and that's not easy. But at the end of the day, if you're not happy with you and the way things are going, then maybe need to do a little check and figure out what it is that's causing you to not be you with your work. And this is the hardest part. Gosh, I talk to artists about this all the time. That's a struggle. What direction do I want to go? How do I want to do this? And man, early on, you're gonna take a lot of risks that are really not gonna pan out and are gonna suck early on because there are times you're gonna say yes when you probably should say no because you don't know what you're doing. I mean, trust me, I've been in that gallery relationship that has ended in flames, you know. And I'm when I say flames, I'm talking FBI, LAPD, missing work, uh, an owner who fled the country, uh, you know, crazy things like that. And it's like this world, but it's just like every other world. It's not just the art world. It's like everything else. People say, oh, well, in the art world, no, no, no. Well, go out in the business world, it's the same thing. You got CEOs who suck, you've got coworkers who are terrible, you have, you know, and then you have people that you love and enjoy and care about you. So at the end of the day, it's really kind of figuring out how does this work for me and the importance of having the others in the room to speak into you and to ask questions to are so vital. I mean, V and Eric right there with that story and him and Ferrari Gallery and moving into that space without V there, where does that go? Who knows? Maybe Eric figures it out on his own a little later on, or maybe he misses a whole, you know, something that is very tangible and with a group of people that absolutely adore him and are giving him opportunities. So I have a big question as we're talking about showing and our work being out there. And this this is what Nathan wanted me to ask more than anything with V, is we have an exhibition, group show, solo show. And like Eric talked about it earlier, we have all these emotions that this high that we're up on and all this time preparing, leading up to it, and the pressure and the deadlines, then we have the show, the opening experience, then we go home. And there's a certain thing that sets in. And V, I I credit you for this term, the post-artum depression that sets in. And we talk about this all the time, you and I, right after these moments. But what does this mean? How did you come to identify this and how do you work through it?

Rituals For Recovery And Balance

SPEAKER_00 59:45

You know, there have been many moments in my life where I've worked up to something. And I think anyone can relate to this, like whether it's planning for your wedding or planning some big event or you're organizing something or energetically when you're like building and focusing, hyper-focused on something. And then once it's out in the world and it happens and it's over, like there's this drop, right? Like it's just it's just about burst of energy. But for artists, it's about creation. And, you know, as a mother, like it's very close aligned with that whole process of of creating life. You know, it's like building up for these nine months, and you're nurturing and growing, and you're you're feeding, and like it's it's it's it's all encompassing. And that's what creating a body of work is the same. You're you it you're putting all of your vulnerability into it, you're putting all of your energy and all of your time. And it is something that is very personal to you and and very, very precious, and then you release it out into the world, which is scary. It's so scary, but you're like all this energy is like compact, right? It's it's like this ball of energy building up, building up, building up, building up, getting bigger. And then as soon as you have that show, you know, and even maybe for the whole month that it's up, you have all this programming and you still have this energy that you're rotting on, right? You have the artist talks and you have like the promotions, and you have the media, and you and you're like having the meetings, and like so you're still on it. It's really more when you take it down that that when you take it down and you have to bring it back into your studio. Like maybe not all of it comes back, but a lot of it does, or maybe all of it does, whatever. But it's the coming home, and now it's like sitting there and you it just hits you like this thing, like with it's like you know, it it you're left with this high, and then you have that low where you were expending all this energy, and now all that energy that you put onto the world comes home and you don't know what to do with it. And it everything that goes up must come down. It's the yin and yang of life. With suffering, there's pain, but there, but there's joy and happiness, right? Like there's always this pendulum swing that happens. And post-artom depression is a real thing, and I don't want artists to feel bad about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

Can we can we please normalize this process? This you and celebrate it in a way. It's okay to grieve, it's okay to feel heavy that you put all your vulnerability out there, you know, and and and and but also like remind yourself you're brave. I'm talking like a mom.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:38

It's because you are a mom.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

I can't help that, but it's true. It's like post-arm depression, it's like, you know, you're um, you know, talking to people that have experienced it, but also talking to your children. Like it's all of those things. It's like, you know, you were brave in that point of being putting yourself out there, being vulnerable, but also like allow yourself to feel it. Understand that that's part of the process, it's normal, but then you know, learn from it as to like celebrate it, right? You know, like celebrate yourself in that in that space and then learn how you can manage it. So a lot of times I think with anything in life, if you tend to not feel comfortable in the uncomfortable, right? This is the part like post-ard depression can sometimes feel uncomfortable because it makes us feel heavy, dark, um sad, grieving, all these emotions that in human life a lot of people have a hard time being in. So, how do we do that? We distract ourselves, um, you know, with whatever it is that we distract ourselves with media, you know, going out, um, drinking, you know, doing all kinds of things, right? We we distract ourselves as human beings in many ways in the places that we're uncomfortable. Yeah. But what I want to tell artists is it's like allow yourself to feel it, allow yourself to be in it, acknowledge it, recognize it, but then also start putting in the tools to allow yourself to process it in a healthy way. Um, I've learned personally for me, is like I've always plan a trip shortly after a show ends, usually in nature, where I can be quiet and with myself. It's rejuvenating because I'm spending time by myself uh or with loved ones and in this beautiful space, being present that allows me to process and be in that space of post-arm depression in a healthy way.

Finding Community Without Being Opportunistic

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

Yeah, that's very well said, V. Just to tail off on the end of that, I I think it is important to feel. I think it is important to give that space and time to reflect and to really see where all that's coming from. And I've I've I have learned now that art can't be the only thing that you have. It, you know, because when you do come down and it and it kind of like crashes in that way, if you're just returning back into the studio to make more work or to focus on the next thing, like it doesn't let you become rounded out, it doesn't let you really absorb what just happened. So for me, I think having my own daily practice, my own, you know, whether it's spirituality, whether it's, you know, sound medicine, these other things that I can lean on as my daily practice that brings me back to center, um, is such a critical thing. Maybe it's getting out and hiking and being in nature. It is the art community that we return back into, not just to talk about art, not just to talk about what this experience just was, but that art is an aspect of yourself. It but there's many aspects that you that you have. And it's really important to maybe when you come back down off of this this high, is to be able to channel that into something that you know you can work through in yourself in other ways. And uh, and I I just really think it's important to be a well-rounded human being uh in order to process these types of events. And you know, we're used to seeing artists that came before us like, you know, you think of Pollock, you think of Rothko, you think of, you know, so many artists that that struggled in their lives and just had miserable existences. And as romantic as that is, and maybe it channeled in their art is that what made their art great? Well I don't know, maybe, you know, did Van Gogh have to cut his ear off in order to, you know, work through something? Maybe. But what I'm finding is the suffering that I thought that I had to go through is somewhat unnecessary. And if we can channel that in a more positive way, become better human beings, maybe put down the drinking, maybe don't rely on a substance, maybe all of these things that I'm guilty of, um, if I can channel that in a more positive way and get more centered in myself, not only do I come off that that high easier, but it also lifts back up into the next high in a better way. So it's all about this yin and yang, right? How do you take that resistance? How do you take away the thing that's keeping you from being what you need to be in a healthy way?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:30

Yes, I mean soul care for artists, for anybody is vital, but for artists it's extremely vital. And I think it's also very important to understand yourself very well because we all have different personalities. We all have different experiences in life and our journeys and in our story that affect who we are as an individual that can either affect our true self or our false self. And when we're recognizing those things and we're able to sit in front of the mirror and say, well, it's going to be really easy for me to run to my false self in this moment. I'm speaking to myself right now in the mirror, right? In that post-artum depression moment. It's easy for me to run to my false self and just crash for a week miserably emotionally, even though I just had a solo show. You know what I mean? That's kind of the ridiculousness but also the power of it because it's like you just had this thing. You were just in this show. You just got to do this thing that you dream of doing and then it's gone and you think you're never going to have it again. Like these are the I'm a four on the Enneagram, right? These are the the false self moments for me on that scale is like, well maybe I'll never have a so and I know that's dumb, but that doesn't mean my psyche doesn't kind of start to process those things. So what do I need to do? Right? Like I need to get nature. I need to get outside I need to do these things that fill my soul in a way that leads me back to that true self so that I'm able to get back into the zone again. Take a break like go away to come back. I think it was Warhol or I forget who said it like the best thing to do is go away so that you can come back. Leave work so you can come back. Give yourself that time and that break and listen community again so important not just with art but with your family and with those other friends as well but compute community is vital. Even for those artists that struggled that you mentioned two of the male uh very famous artists who both their lives ended tragically they did have community they did have things and I think they didn't use them in the way that they could have to maybe help sustain and fight through some of the things that that they struggled with.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

So leading into that community what advice do you have for beginning artists out there and how to cultivate these kind of relationships that can help their career long term I think intuition that that's the thing that's coming up for me is I've learned over the years, because in the beginning you don't really know what you're searching for. You go to shows and maybe you try to hide in the corner a little bit and look and see what's going on and maybe you approach some people and maybe you don't if you're kind of you know not socially comfortable um but over the years I've just kind of learned to dial into my intuition and energetically feel who I'm aligned with, what feels right. Am I interested in their work? Am I interested in them as a human being? And sometimes those people who you think you're aligned with it turns out it's not but it is something that you can kind of like narrow down if you're listening to and not just grasping for whatever you know you can get um and I've noticed that over the years if I just kind of listen to that and I wait patiently it's not just about volume like let me go to every show and let me talk to everybody. I mean some people do that but for me I'm now more selective in who it is that I want to where I want to go what I want to see who I want to talk to and I build those relationships over time and they reveal themselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:17

Yeah I would I would echo what Eric said um it is a journey but you have to be willing to put yourself out there and find your community know that you will find your people I mean this is one thing I love about our art community is like we are the misfits. We are the most impractical people in society if you think about it. I mean it is the most insane thing to do is to create out of a place of pure imagination joy curiosity play um and and do it in a way that is like so intentional and then like to try to put purpose and and and um and perspective on it but also like this layer of like value right like what is valuable in the art world well of course I think we can all like have a whole nother two hour conversation on that alone. But like it is such an impractical life and you will find your people like there is no broader band rainbow of uh personalities and and people out there but in the art world you know it's like it's so interesting because like you know in medicine there's a specific type of you know personality that's made them successful to get there. That's the same and like in maybe in business or in law, whatever like all these other fields of practice, right? But nowhere in any other profession than the arts do you have such a wide range of people different backgrounds, different perspectives but so that gives you just know that you will find your people it will happen. And you know it's just a matter of being brave enough to continue to put yourself out there. And when you do also please don't look at every conversation as an opportunity that's massive do not look at every conversation as an opportunity. When you come off as an opportunist you don't allow for the other people on the receiving end to receive you in an authentic way. Okay and it's really important that not only do we present our work authentically but ourselves and I think if when you allow things to organically happen as in that relationship that Eric had with the Ferraris like it is that's when you start to feel things aligned. If you feel resistance in anything take that as feedback. Resistance sometimes is telling you a lot more of where you don't belong and don't push yourself in the spaces allow them to happen organically on their own where it feels good because that will set you up for the most success in that journey. If you are constantly looking at every situation every opportunity that you're going out meeting people as an opportunity you're not allowing yourself to fully be represented who you are because you're showing up in a performative way and with an agenda. Right?

DIY Shows, Celebration, And Next Steps

SPEAKER_04 1:14:31

Like I think the the biggest value that I've had in this journey is learning how to be open without expectation and be authentic well and man one of my favorite quotes um I think it's Austin Cleon that actually says it in his work in his book Show Your Work he says in order to be interesting you need to first be interested if you're going into something selfishly you're only going to be viewed as selfish. And trust me we've all seen we've all seen that person. We've all seen that person in an opening we've all seen them in a space and they're literally just hawking themselves at the gallery director at a curator and you and I've watched the face of that gallery director that curator that assistant of like get me out of here like you're doing yourself no favors. Listen we all want to be in somewhere every gallery director every gallery assistant every curator knows that every artist that exists in the world wants to be in that space or in a space. They know that they're not against you the problem is there's so many artists pushing themselves on them rather than being a part of and supporting and entering the dialogue in that community for the reason of I love this gallery. I love the work they show I love the artists on the roster I love how they do things so I'm gonna come to every opening and I'm gonna hang out and I'm gonna get to know I'm gonna be a part of this community. Well what happens usually down the road they recognize you they know you're there in an unselfish manner for a long period of time and you're committed to being there and supporting them they're gonna end up asking you the question hey see all the time I'm so and so oh I'm V, I'm Eric's grace to meet you. Are you an artist? And they're not dumb. These people are intelligent they know the world they know their world that they're in. Be interested in something and go. But here's what all here's what else is going to happen. Even if you're a fly in the wall like Jerry Salt says if you're so scared and introverted just go be in a fly in a wall. Eventually another fly in a wall is going to say hi. And then you're gonna end up having coffee together and doing studio visits and becoming art besties. Like this is how these things happen. And it's how they happened in history as well. One artist is at the salon showing in Paris and they keep seeing that other artist that's there all the time but neither of them talk they end up becoming best buddies right then they end up starting the beehive in Paris Monet, Manet, Degas, Morissette Impressionism is birthed right so this is how things happen. So show up go meet people go be shy just go look go for the work maybe somebody will say hi maybe comes your art best friend I don't know a couple more things before we close here I want to kind of go full circle back to the amplified show that all that all three of us are in right now with other people and I I met another new artist I'd never met before there and we've been hanging out Ariel Davis in Fort Worth she's incredible. And so like what does showing with a friend do not just with the work with yourself like what does it mean to you professionally and personally when you're showing with friends you can take celebrating each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

I mean I think that's that's that's the fruit of it for me you know and and I've had other communities of friends you know I'm an ICOSA which is a collective and we support each other and and that's a different type of relationship as well like Ty we've talked about the difference between friends who are artists and artist friends. There's a difference there right but it doesn't matter because that's still a community as well and um being able to support each other's practice being able to like help and do installation and then or having group shows where we get to see each other's work and and celebrate each other. Like really that's that's the thing like everything that you do no matter how small no matter how big is a win in some way and when you can share that win with your your closest friends or people that you care and respect it it's it makes the experience that much richer um and then is that feedback you know that that that that then just motivates you to to want it more. You know so it's it's it's nurturing it's celebration it's joyful um and it's it allows you to like remind you of why you are in this you know why why you chose to be an artist.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:15

And I think it takes the pressure off this was one of the least pressurized shows going into it I think I've ever been a part of because I wasn't doing it for you know like for any kind of notoriety or for any kind of sales or for it was just purely to be on the walls with my friends and you know it was just effortless. And so it's a safe space for you to go in, show the work that you want to put forward have a great time with your friends meet some new friends and then whatever happens beyond that is just like the icing on the cake. So for me it was it was such a joyful experience and something that I didn't have to be too overly concerned with.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:00

Yeah. When I think I love celebration because you know we talked about rejection we talked about those things postartum depression those things we it's really easy for an artist's life to be kind of void of celebration right because when you make a sale you can tell it to your partner you can tell it to your spouse or your best friend who's not an artist and they don't understand how massive that is in your life to get into a show or to sell a work of art or to get into a residency or be invited on an art podcast whatever that may be having people to celebrate those things with that understand it right it's like you go you go to another country and you come back home and you're trying to tell your friends about your experience the food I ate the smells the people the line they have no clue. They just go cool that sounds amazing and inside you're going man I just want them to feel it and know it. That's how we feel as artists right when we can't share that with anybody that really understands. And so you know that there are multiple friends I have in the show not just you two right Spencer Welsh Focus Lily um Winter Roselowski there John Storm um Russ. There are multiple artists that I know from Waco as well that I'm sharing that that space with too and it brings me so much joy to be able to walk in with other artist friends and just go, man, I'm so excited to be showing it just does something just does something really special. And I think too there's one experience from the show um there's an artist uh who showed for the very first time his first time ever showing work and the work sold and I think it's the only piece in the whole exhibition that that sold on opening night and I know each of us were celebrating with him in that sale and kind of going no no no we want I'm gonna stand here right now and tell you how amazing this is and how incredible it is to sell a work and show your first piece in the first night in an incredible space like this. Like it's magic and how fun to be able to share that with another artist that you know um just closing off real quick the this has been I mean a joy for me because anytime I get to hang out with you two together, which we get to often not all the time but often and especially in the last two years we've got to do it quite a bit which is really fun because V's in Austin Eric's in San Antonio I'm in Waco we're all in Texas so it's an easy little one two three down 35 to hang out but find ways to do things with your artist friends out there. V and I have showed in empty houses together we've we're she had a friend who's a realtor and we went through that house cleaned it up swept the floors put up little battery lights you know and we filled the house with our art to do an exhibition uh with Sarah Frankie Linder, another friend of ours in Austin. So but you can do those things. I've done shows with friends in backyards. We've literally cleaned out a backyard and a garage and put our art up and celebrated sharing and showing our work together inviting our community out to do it. A show is a show is a show is a show, as Jerry Salt says it doesn't matter where you're showing but early on in your career when you don't have a gallery or you don't have things to apply it to and you don't know, do your own stuff. That's okay. That's freaking cool actually that's very indie it's very punk rock it's underground there will be a time when you're wishing you were doing those things again. I hope you there's a time for you I pray for that for you all that you're in galleries and those things you're missing because you're too busy with the way the art world's going. Do things like that to get started and invite your friends to be a part that you're meeting. Great way to meet other artists is as you're connecting with them hey let's do a group show together let's go find a space or let's do it at my house or in my yard find things to do to build those relationships. So uh Eric and V, thank you so much for being on today with us. You can find all of their information um on the podcast Spotify YouTube I'll have their Instagrams I'll have their websites listed so please go visit them. If you want to come see our work that's up at Arts Center Waco if you're driving from Dallas to Austin or Houston to wherever it's up I think until March 7th or March 9th I can't remember one of those two dates and it's a wonderful exhibition that Bella Perez curated very very well. She did a great job uh it's a really fun show a large large works exhibition come see our work it's hanging Arts Center Waco right off of 35 in Waco Texas and thank you all for being here and I hope I will see you guys soon not on camera.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:51

Thank you for having us Ty we appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:55

Worse