De-Romanticizing Art And What It Gives Back

Art-making isn’t a vibe. It’s a practice that can feel exhausting, confusing, and sometimes flat-out miserable, yet we still wake up wanting to go back. We sit with a blunt question that every working artist eventually faces: what is making art giving us even when it doesn’t feel good?

We start by de-romanticizing the work through Hugo Winder-Lind’s reminder that painting doesn’t always feel good, especially now that artists are expected to be multi-faceted creators. From there we get honest about envy, creative cycles, and the kindness we owe other artists when they’re in the ditch. We also call out the social media highlight reel, the edited two minutes that hides the seven hours of staring, failing, quitting, and starting again.

Then we move into what the studio actually gives back. Mark Bradford frames labor as a way to slow down until you can hear yourself think and reach the quieter voice with the better idea. Sheila Hicks adds the bigger frame: discovery is part of being alive, so hang in there because you never know what the next discovery might be. Along the way we talk logistics, perfectionism, routines that prime the pump, excluding distractions so actions match goals, and Noel W. Anderson shares why the studio nourishes us in ways we can’t fully explain.

If you’ve been stuck, burned out, or questioning why you keep doing this, hit play. Subscribe, share this with an artist friend, and leave a review, then tell us: what does your creative process give you when it’s not giving you joy?

Audio artist clips from:

TimeStamps: https://www.instagram.com/time____stamp/

Louisiana Channel: https://www.instagram.com/louisianachannel/

Artists:

Hugo Winder-Lind: https://www.instagram.com/hugowinderlind/

Noel W. Anderson: https://www.instagram.com/nwa_studios/

Sheila Hicks: https://www.instagram.com/hastingshicks/

Mark Bradford: https://www.hauserwirth.com/artists/2838-mark-bradford/

Make sure to follow us on Instagram here:
@justmakeartpodcast   @tynathanclark   @nathanterborg

Watch the Video Episode on Youtube or Spotify,

https://www.youtube.com/@JustMakeArtPodcast

Transcript

Catching Up And Setting Theme

SPEAKER_05 0:06

Wow, Nathan, I feel like it's been a little bit. I'm excited to be back here with you. We've had some really fun guest artists and guest episodes and a replay of Twombly, and I am pumped to jump into this today.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

It's a I think it's gonna be a really full meaty episode. Meaty. Yeah, no, same here. Um, I I do feel like that's a a recurring theme of a lot of our sure standard episodes, whatever that even means at this point. But hey, it's been a while. Can't wait. All right, check. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:38

Well, you know, that's what happens when you got a lot of stuff going on, you know. It's I wish this was the only thing we were doing outside of making work, but do you really? Yeah. Like if I was just painting and recording this, wait, that kind of is what I do. Yeah, no, I've been working on a lot of different things in the past few months, as you have as well, but you know what I mean. You know what I mean.

When Making Art Feels Bad

SPEAKER_04 1:01

I definitely do. Well, listen, we've um we've got some exciting quotes to talk about today. We're gonna kind of ponder a question. So our our our main theme is this idea of deromanticizing the work, and we're going to examine that through the lens of a specific question, which is what is making art give us even when it doesn't feel good? So we've got four main quotes that we're going to discuss, but here's kind of the uh the broad, the big picture of what of what's coming. So thing one, making is hard. That's the deromanticization part of the equation. In spite of it being hard, it still gives us a lot. So we're gonna unpack three things that it gives us. It slows our thinking to get to the idea. It reminds us that making in and of itself is thinking, and that making nourishes us in ways that we can't even comprehend. So with that, you told you said you were gonna whisper. Yeah, I was gonna ask. Uh so with that in mind, our first quote comes from Hugo Winder Lind.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

It's not like it feels good all the time. I think that's a big thing. It doesn't feel good all the time to paint or make art. Like really exhausting, especially now with the expectation on you to become a sort of multi-faceted creative individual rather than just doing one thing.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

And there's a lot in there, Nathan. Definitely. There's just a lot in there. You know, I've definitely been in the first half of that currently the last few months. Nothing just feels very good at this point. And it's absolutely more exhausting right now than it's been. And it's just, I don't know, it's just this funk I've been in of having, I think, created so much over a year's period of time, like really creating new ideas and new things and working it out that all of a sudden I'm in this point where I haven't figured it out, but it's still moving, but nothing feels good now. Yeah. And things did feel really good for years. So now I'm back in that moment of not forcing, but just trying to keep motivated and fighting apathy to keep creating and moving. I totally get what he's saying in that second part that when you have these expectations of being and doing something and being a creative individual rather than just doing one thing, like feels like there are so many other things pulling at you in those moments, too.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

It's funny because we are on different cycles of the of the you know creative process. I remember so when you when you told me that I had called you, we were talking whatever last week.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

And I was like, man, it's flowing. Like things, a lot of things are finally, you know, coming together. And I'm just I was I'm really excited about where things are at and where they're headed, and things are just you know, they're they're coming together in a way that they haven't, you know, for a while. Yeah. And um, I mean, it would have been nice if you'd at least spent, you know, five seconds being like, hey, that's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_05 4:14

But no, no, it's because my brain was doing this. My brain was literally flipping you off like I'm doing in the video. If you're watching YouTube, you can see me. This is what my brain was doing.

SPEAKER_04 4:22

No, I felt it. I felt it over the phone. You went straight to like, well, not so much here.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

No, I did. I mean, it's that's a crazy thing, right? It's like you want to be excited for your friends and your colleagues and your peers in the moments when they're in the flow are successful, but when you're on the opposite end of it in the moment, it's hard. Yeah. Like it's that battle because I think V, who we had on a few episodes ago, we were chatting about a little clip of a video that she had put up on Instagram, and it was of a guy running in a marathon, and he couldn't make he just he hit the breaking point physically, and he's just collapsing on the ground. And runners are passing him, people are just going by, and he keeps getting up and falling up and falling up and falling, and his legs, and then two runners grab him and put him over their shoulders and start running with him. And his legs are just kind of dragging, and we're and I would like was just I was in tears, and I'm like, gosh, yeah, this is it. And she's like, We need more kindness like this in life, and that's the same thing we need to like be doing to our artist comrades in the moment, whether they're struggling or if they're successful, we still need to put that arm around him and just, you know, either help them along the road or go, I'm so happy for you. Because it once I got the phone with you, I was like, dude, I'm so pumped he's in a flow. This is great for him. He needs this right now.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

You're reminding me of of a principle of recovery um in in in life, but just this idea of there's certain things that we don't get to keep unless we continue to give them away. And this could be one of those things, right? Like, of course. I mean, look, if I'm running a marathon and I'm shooting for a time, I mean, that dude's gonna be okay. It's not like we're on the battlefield and you know, we gotta drag him back to safety. Like he's gonna live. I can't say for sure that I would be the person that would that would put somebody over my shoulder in that context. But when somebody is, you know, legitimately struggling, like the more that we can offer up, the more that we can share, you know, with the people that we are in communion with, that we're in community with in this in this game, like the more you share, the more you, the more you get, you know, the more you give, the more the more the more there is, you know, whatever. Insert your your cliche here, but they're true. Like that's something that, I mean, even just by virtue of talking about it with somebody else, and this is something, you know, back to that conversation. It's not as though I could just say, like, well, hey, have you have you thought about like just having everything work all of a sudden?

unknown 6:53

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

There's only so much that you can transmute to somebody else, but there is something to be said for, you know, just doing what we can to lift other people up and offer what we can, you know, in that moment, which oftentimes comes back to perspective. I mean, don't you find that that's something that you end up offering, whether it be to your mentees or just you know, other artists that you're in conversation and in communication with, is just a version of perspective because that's really what we need in those moments is you know, what's right in front of us feels like all there is when in actuality that's that's not the case at all.

SPEAKER_05 7:29

Yeah, I think perspective is the is the point to be made there because as I was watching that video of the marathon, I had two different perspectives in my head. One was, oh man, isn't that amazing that they lifted this guy up and helped him across the finish line? But then my other perspective, after I sat for a few seconds, was hold on, he knows exactly what he's getting into. He knows that he may finish or may not finish, or his body may just be giving out and he can't finish the race. And, you know, I was thinking, well, everybody's in the same game with him. They're all on the same level, they're all doing the same thing. And so should the other racer stop to help him and then it then hurts what they're trying to accomplish in that race, yeah, or should they just keep going? Because even as an artist, right, there's multiple times where it's like, hey, we can't stop and help you and pick you up and bring you along with us because maybe you, the artist, aren't putting enough work in in the studio or outside the studio or networking. Like, there's there are two perspectives, yeah, right. Because there are plenty of artists that I've been around, you know, who are just like, come on, let's go. We can do this, we can do this. And I'm like, you're not doing anything. Like, you're not doing yourself any favors by not spending time in the studio when you have it, by not experimenting and growing your work, by not getting yourself out there and going to openings and shows and trying to meet people and network. Like, I can't be the person that just brings you along and does that for you. That's right.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:55

You know, so perspective is the grandiose thing here to think about in those moments.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

I want to speak to the the highlight real illusion that is social media.

unknown 9:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

I'm sure you get comments like this as well. It looks like you're having so much fun. Oh, I wish I could just be a fly on the wall. And in that context, it's difficult to respond in a way that's, I mean, it's just, hey, thanks, you know. But the real response is this isn't real. Yeah. It's real, you know, what you're seeing is it are true clips, but those are highlights. That's the most visually interesting seven seconds from seven hours worth of standing around, trying things that don't work, being discouraged, throwing stuff across the studio, quitting and firing myself and hiring myself back, you know, 10 minutes later. Yep. And it's, it's, I don't know about you. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, but I personally I I feel I've got some guilt around even saying that because I am so overwhelmed with gratitude to be able to for it to be hard, to be able to suffer in the studio, understanding that that's a gift that a lot of people don't have, you know. So it's kind of keeping one foot planted in both camps. Like this is all even when it sucks, even when it's terrible, it's still awesome. Like a bad day at the studio is still better than you know, fill in the blank. Yeah. Anything almost anything else. And it's fucking hard.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

It's both of those things.

SPEAKER_05 10:33

It's I love it and I'm tired of it, but I need it. Like at the end of the day, we need eyeballs. We need eyeballs, period. As artists, we need viewers. We need to, if you're gonna make it. At least two.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

At least at least one. You can go to one.

SPEAKER_05 10:50

At least one other, yeah. You include it as two. But it's like, yeah, it drives me crazy, but I know it's a necessary today, yeah, too. And so it's really hard to not get wrapped up in so many things, especially with that highlight reel. You know, like the last video I put up of a work that I did, a diptych. I mean, it was like probably three weeks worth of work that I edited down to less than two minutes. And, you know, I'm cutting out Mandy coming in to the studio to say hi and me stopping working for a while. You know, there's all those moments in the day, you know, my my studio system cash like walking through the painting when I'm trying to glue something down, or just moments of me standing there and just looking at the stuff. You know, I record everything, so there's so much to cut out. But yeah, if I just played the raw video, you know, you'd have 50 hours of me standing and looking and trying to figure out what to do next. Then you'd have, you know, 10 hours of actual painting.

Decoupling Feelings From Progress

SPEAKER_04 11:48

Back to that idea of perspective, you know, one of the things that I tell myself when I'm conscious about what I'm telling myself, which when I'm not is almost always something negative. It's a whole other conversation. But when I'm intentional about what I'm telling myself, one of the things that I I really try to keep at the forefront of my thinking is that it doesn't have to feel good in the moment for it to work. And just because it feels good in the moment doesn't mean that it's going to work. Yeah. So, you know, I think there's a there's a natural association between those two things because a lot of things in life kind of line up that way, right? Like, hey, it felt good doing it and it turned out well. Um, I think that in the studio, that's where it's just, it's just different, you know, like there's a it's so it becomes a matter of really sort of unpairing or undecoupling that natural association. And the perspective comes in when I realize, oh, just because it doesn't feel good right now does not mean that something that happened in the studio today won't be something great or won't work, even if it's not working with this piece or in this particular context. Marks were made, material was processed, like things happened. And so there's just that perspective of like, you know, when I walk out of the studio at night to just remind myself, hey, you know, it's okay. It's okay. A lot of it just comes to being easier on ourselves, or I'll speak in first person, being easier, you know, on myself, where when you're ambitious and when you hold yourself to a high standard, that can create a dynamic where you're only going to, you know, feel good at the end very occasionally, as opposed to associating productivity or whatever good things happening with a step in the right direction, right? A brick was like we don't know we're building, we don't know which wall this is, but we laid we laid some bricks today. And we might come back tomorrow and tear them all down, but even then, now we'll know where to build the wall tomorrow.

SPEAKER_05 13:57

I I don't feel like I have a whole lot of time when I'm working where I feel really good. Yeah. Like I honestly don't. I think the majority of my time is confusion, really seeking out things that I'm aren't currently in my head, trying to fight with myself and what I think could work versus what I've seen work. I feel like my head's all over the place. And when I'm feeling really good, I feel like I'm creating really bad work, honestly. When I'm really like, oh yeah, this is really working. I feel like I come back the next day or the next week and look at the work and go, God, that's freaking horrible. Right. That's really bad. And that's that last painting that I put up I was telling you about. Remember, I I created a painting and then I stepped back and went, How in the world did I just time hop back to 2013? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I was I was mind blown and I was in the flow, man. I was like, yeah, this is awesome. This is working so good. And then I step back and went, I just lost 13 years in that moment of really feeling great. Yeah. And so then I painted over the whole thing and started again. But it's like, I was just a weird dynamic. The artist's mind is such a crazy weird dynamic that we're all different, we all operate in different ways.

SPEAKER_06 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:18

But art is not gonna feel good all the time, everybody. It's just not.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

And we're and we're not gonna understand it most of the time. I would argue that there was some part of you that for whatever reason, reasons that will remain unknown, just needed to do that that day. Yeah, absolutely. And that some component of going back 13 years needed to sort of resurface for you to work through and have that come out another way in the 1930s. Oh, I know that in 1996.

SPEAKER_05 15:53

Check this. So that poem, or sorry, the poem that I was painting from was from the year 2000 and that I wrote in 2000, right? And I'm sorry, I always think the year 2000. So good. So my mind was back in that time with my buddy Mike on the beach in Santa Barbara and the poem we're out in the ocean at night watching the moonlight, talking about his sister Heidi that we lost, I think two years prior to that. And we were discussing that in tears and just talking, just this life moment that was just beautiful in the water in Santa Barbara with the moonlight, and it was just an incredible night. So I was kind of there. And then what I realized is I painted kind of forms of a painting that I painted of he and I in college for a class, and somehow all of that brain space, right, couldn't leave that moment. But what I realized later when I painted over it, if I hadn't just gone with it and worked through that, I wouldn't have gotten to where I would have gone.

SPEAKER_04 17:03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

And I spent a ton of time working on those layers that ended up becoming just nothing, but it worked my mind to the place and a frenzy that I needed to be in when I started over.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

You reminded me of something else that's a really good anchor for perspective, which is to look at, I'm looking at pieces in my little podcasting studio here. You look back at, yeah, that's a great example right there that I'm looking at. You look back at finished work that ultimately did resolve itself and work as well as it needed to at that time for it to be. I don't know about you, but I can remember specifically like, yep, that part right there I was super frustrated about and wish it hadn't happened. But ultimately, it did get resolved and it did work out. And it ended up in case of the one I'm looking at, it ended up being the best part of the finished piece. Yep. So the point is we're not always gonna understand it. We're typically usually not going to understand it, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

Well, and I think a lot of that goes into what Mark Brackford is about to tell us as well.

Mark Bradford And The Quiet Voice

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Segway. I still don't know how this is gonna hang. I still don't even know. To me, I like it with the tax in it, but well, maybe bright color tax. I'm not sure how it's gonna hang. I just thought to put it in the box. Send it down there, stack it up and put it in the box. I noticed that my art practice is very detailed labor intensive. And I think that that's a way of slowing myself down so that I can hear myself think. So I can hear the voice that's a little bit more quiet, so I can hear maybe the decision that might come through that's a little less large. That quieter voice has sometimes a more interesting idea if I can get to it.

SPEAKER_05 18:59

I've got like tears forming in my eyes right now because when I hear Mark Bradford talk about art, I just go to a different place. I honestly do. He just takes me to a place that is so different and so beautiful and so wonderful. And, you know, having seen so much of his work in person, you know, just mean everything he said there, right? That's kind of what I was talking about in my own way, with not feeling good about the work, just kind of spending a lot of time listening and working through. And it's like just that sentence, the quieter voice has sometimes the more interesting idea if I can get to it. Damn. Preach, Mark.

SPEAKER_04 19:44

I don't know. I mean, he's one of he's one of my he's on my Mount Rushmore. Yeah, same. We will, he's on, he's on an ever-growing list of just icons where we're like, we're gonna do a Bradford episode, but yeah, we gotta do it right. Yes, yeah. So this is this is not that for today's purposes, but I mean the thing that struck me that the opening line is what really struck me, and it's not what he said, it's how he says it. I still don't know how this is gonna hang. I still know because I have these logistical frustrations and ponderings all the time, especially with the materials that I'm working with that aren't meant for art, that have never been combined, you know, together for any other reason. There it does, it just creates a lot of logistical challenges of like, okay, cool. I've got a piece that I like as it exists right now with part of it screwed to the wall and part of it like, how is this going to exist? How's this gonna be transported? How is this going to exist in space? How's it going to be installed? You know, all of these things because I ask that question all the time, but the way that I ask it is typically very different. It's much more like, I still know how this is gonna hang, what the hell am I doing? You know, it's it's whereas this mark's just like I just don't even know.

SPEAKER_05 21:08

Yeah, it's okay. We'll see. Yeah, I'll just ship it in a box. I'm just gonna stack them all and ship it and go, here you go. Here's a here's a little thing attacks. If you want to use those, let's use the bright colored ones. Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Let them know that's what here here it is. Let them figure it out. It's numbered, it's lettered. You know where here's where everything goes.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

You and I talk about this a lot, you know, when we're when we're on the phone and and talking about our work and things. And it's you know, the general thing that I'm usually telling you is just make it and figure it out later. Get those ideas out, just make the damn thing, and we'll figure everything out later. Shipping, logistics, hanging, sitting, like all that stuff. Like, and I'm telling artists all the time, because we can get held back by the logistics. Yeah, we can. Trust me, some of you artists understand that, some you're not there yet. But there will be a point in time when you're experimenting and working on things and you're you start thinking about. About logistics. How can it ship? How will it be able to be put together? No, just make it figure that out later. Then you get on the phone with your 10 art friends and you guys have a pow wow and you figure out how in the world are we going to ship this or hang it or put it up. I mean, that's why I love seeing so many different artists work when I go into museums.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Right.

SPEAKER_05 22:21

And I'm walking around and I'm looking at this artist, I'm looking at that artist, and I'm going, okay, just hang it from the ceiling by a single hook and just let it drape on the floor. Yeah. Boom. Do whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

And it's okay if you can see the seams. It's okay if you can see the screws. Or I mean, you know, that's where, that's where I have to actively short circuit my perfectionism is wanting it to look, you know, and just being okay with like, hey, show your work. Like, yep, this is how it, this is how this is held together. This is how this exists. This is, you know, this is not one big, you know, eight by fourteen foot, you know, piece. And that's okay. I mean, you look at Bradford's work, you know, almost all of it, you can see those things. You can see where, you know, how it's it was certainly shipped modular. You know, this 20 by you know, 50 foot piece didn't, it's not just one one that didn't come in a 20 by you know 50 foot crate. And I think uh it's funny that that idea, and that's one of the things that you definitely helped me with when I was in one of your mentees, and that idea served me very well for a long time. I'm having to reconsider that at this at this point as I'm starting to make work that I know like I'm preparing uh, you know, for some work that's gonna be going to Spain this summer and just thinking about all right, some of these things are gonna hang outside. There are some things that can be resolved at the end, and some things that I actually legitimately have to think through because I can't, you know, uh deassemble to completely disassemble it in order anyway. Yeah, chicken or chicken or egg. You know, at some point we're gonna have to figure this out. Is it now or is it later? Is really the question.

SPEAKER_05 23:55

But you have artists like Sam Gilliam, right, who give you permission to hang it every which way possible. Right? His piece goes into a museum and it hangs potentially the way it was supposed to, but it's made to his drape paintings, they're made to be hung in multiple angles, different sides, different corners, and it changes every single time. Right. And then Glen Suey, right? Another great example of somebody whose work on a wall can take on so many different forms. And he even at times is like telling the museum, right, installers, like, what do you think? Yeah. It's like, yeah, you know, and then he's letting them kind of decide this fold here and this fold here, and this hangs here, you know. And I don't know. I love that about work. I love when art can do that.

Routine Movement And Thinking Aloud

SPEAKER_04 24:40

Well, and that's a good, it's hilarious that you said that because I was literally just thinking about El Anatui. And, you know, that's that's confidence in the work, too. I mean, that's how confident do you have to be in the work that you're like, yeah, whichever way this hangs, it's going to do what I intended for it to do. It's going to speak, maybe in a way that was better than I intended. You know, that's beautiful. I didn't really add much there. You can cut that part out if you want. Okay, so I got something else on uh on Mark here. So Ty talks about, I'm going to reread this part of this quote. I noticed that my art practice is very detailed, labor-intensive. And I think that that's a way of slowing myself down so I can hear myself think.

unknown 25:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 25:26

I pondered on this for a long time as we were preparing for, uh as I was preparing for for today's episode. So we talk a lot about sitting and listening, which is extremely necessary and valuable, but movement is also an excellent way to quiet the mind, especially when it's repetitive labor, which I do a lot of. You know, it it's it's a way of giving the monkey mind a task to focus on. All right, hey, just do this, right? The monkey mind's got to, I'm doing something, I gotta figure out what to do with my mind. What do I do? What do I do with my hands? I've got to figure out something to do. Let's, all right, let's get that out of the way. So when I sit, I listen and I write. When I'm moving, I'm listening and I'm talking back out loud. This is something I've fully embraced. I realize, so I I've got a new studio assistant who's been helping me out. He's awesome. And um, just part-time. Yeah, guys, it's like eight hours a week. Okay, I don't have a full-time studio assistant, just to be clear. But he's awesome and he's he's been a great sounding board, and you know, he's kind of gotten a good sense of my flow and sort of you know way of being. And I just I just told him, like, listen, you know, because I've had other people help me at different times in the past. And he's like, Yeah, I've just kind of realized that the first like 30 minutes of every day is gonna be us walking around and you talking to get to a point where you know what you want for us to do and what you want for me to do. And I kind of just need a spotter, you know, like just somebody to be there, you know, while I'm externally processing. They realize like, I don't, nobody else has to be in the room. Like it's totally okay just to just to talk to myself. And so I do a lot of that. Obviously, I can't be writing and capturing ideas in my lab notes or in my journal when I'm physically doing other things, but I can absolutely work through these ideas. And there's something about, you know, if you're an external processor like I am, and I think the way that you are as well, probably we both are. That's why this whole podcasting thing, you know, works. But it's it's something that it's it's very valuable, and you don't need to have somebody else, you know, there. So oftentimes I just need to hear myself say it out loud, and it's like, oh, okay. And then I can listen to the material that I'm working on, I can listen to what I'm doing and be in audible conversation with the work in real time.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:43

Well, I think time stops when you're busy working on your work. Like it's almost as if, right? Let me rewind a little bit. When you're sitting and listening and just looking at work, you're completely kind of focused on that moment, and your brain is completely focused on what you're looking at. When you're busy working, your brain moves into a different function. Yeah. It's like driving, right? Those times when you're, I forget what the name of it is for um, it's a psychological term for when your brain, when something so important is happening, your brain protects you. So, like you drive four miles, you know, four hours somewhere, you don't even realize you drove four hours. Like you're kind of just gone in your head. Next thing you know, you're there and you're like, I don't remember anything. But your brain was so knows how important it is to keep you alive in that moment that it's focusing, even though you're the same thing happens when you're making art. You just kind of disappear into something that in your head is so important that your brain is firing all over the place. And so for me, it's like when I'm really working, especially like when I'm really focused sewing or working with fibers in this moment where I'm just completely in on this. And yeah, that's like so many things come to me in a way that's completely different than when I'm just sitting and listening. And I think that's what's that's what Mark is saying in that moment of the way of slowing himself down so he can see himself, he can hear himself think.

SPEAKER_04 29:26

Well, and that's where that the quieter voice, you know, when he says the quieter voice has sometimes the more interesting idea if I can get to it. And the only way the quieter voice has an opportunity to break through is if our default louder voice is out of the way.

SPEAKER_05 29:43

I think so. Yeah. Well, and that's you know, Rick Rubin talks about that a lot, talks about those moments a lot, right? Like you're even when you're busy, you're keeping your mind open to ideas and to new things. And you need to be finding those ways to get to those ideas. And he says, if I can get to it. Yeah. You know, and I think that's if we can, well, yeah, let's figure out those ways that work for us so that we can get to those ideas.

Sheila Hicks On Discovery

SPEAKER_04 30:10

Well, and that's where having uh a studio practice that involves or creative practice, whatever that looks like, you know, for you, let's turn this into a tactical tip. But tactical tip. Do, too, too. It's uh we need a sounder for that. But it's to have a some version of a routine where I mean there there are there are some days where you leave off and you just ran out of time or energy or whatever, and you know exactly where you're gonna pick up. But there's way more days for me anyway, where it's like, all right, let's let's survey the chaos of the day before. Let's see what we got, let's look at at all of our babies with fresh eyes and see, see what's what. But to the idea of routine, you know, moving things around, cleaning up the space, you know, setting things in different light, you know, just getting your hands on things, that in and of itself sort of you know primes the pump for the work that's gonna follow, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Some people think I'm working, but uh they don't realize I'm thinking. You lose a lot of time thinking. Might as well be producing or making something while you're thinking.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

What do you mean by thinking?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Well uh what is happening? What am I concerned about? What would I like to accomplish or do today or tomorrow? And how am I gonna do it? And in order to do it, what do I have to exclude or avoid? Um because Paris is a very noisy, busy, confusing, chaotic city, and I live right in the middle of it, and I'd like to still have an advantage of being in a nice cultural and beautiful and interesting place, but also to keep my peace of mind and quiet too. So I have to find a way to do that, and I can sit still and quietly and think and practically solve all these problems while I'm having a coffee. To be alive is to sort of discover. So hang in there. Because you never know what the next discovery might be. Hang in there.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

Did you feel like she was talking to you? Yes. Right? Isn't that to me? That's like such a special quality when you can watch somebody in an interview, especially for me with artists, and I feel like they're literally talking to me. And I feel like she was very purposeful in that conversation to kind of reach artists out there through it.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

I just looked at I just looked it up. She's 91 today. Oh wow. This this isn't her birthday, but as of as of today, she so she was born in 1934. I don't know how old that video is, but she was certainly in her, you know, mid-80s when she said that. My my point in sharing that is that when artists who have been making work for you know six, seven decades share wisdom, that's real. That's real wisdom. Absolutely who we need to be listening to. So when she says, hang in there, you're like, thanks, thanks, art grandma.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

Seriously, and think of this line, Nathan. To be alive is to sort of discover. Yeah. Like she's offering that to every artist out there. She's saying, Hey, you need to realize to be alive is to discover. So hang in there. You don't know what that next discovery might be. Keep going, artist. Keep going, hang in there. You have a lot of time or a very short time. You know, like we don't know. I was sitting in a coffee shop today and I was writing some poetry while my studio assistant was getting groomed at the groomer, and I was writing some poems on death and just thinking about like time and how much we either don't have or how much we do have. Yeah. You know, and so hearing Sheila say this, and I was thinking about these quotes that we were going over today as well, because I've been in my head. But just thinking of that, like to be alive is a discovery. We should be living in a state of discovery every day that we're walking and breathing. And I think all the things that we've kind of gone through today so far is kind of alluding to those, like busy or quiet, listening or working, like all of it should be wrapped up in discovery somehow. I'm trying not to laugh because I was reading our reviews on uh Spotify and Apple the other day for the podcast, and somebody actually put a review up. I think it was like a three out of five stars that we were getting too emotional and whiny. And here I am today being very emotional and whiny. Are you gonna leave this in? Yeah, I'm leaving it in.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

You brought this up before, and I I remember saying something to the effect of I mean, show me the work that is produced from unfeeling. Yeah. We could probably find some. We don't need to list examples for today's purpose.

SPEAKER_05 35:25

Right, I know. Just like I I hey, I'm a I'm an emotional person. I wear my heart on my sleeve. All of my mentees can attest to that or artists around me or my friends. Like, I'm just emotional. Like I love life. And I want to live it to the fullest in the heartbreak and in the joy and in the loss and in like everything that's wrapped up in life, whether it's painful or horrible or beautiful, like I'm still alive in it, and I'm discovering something amidst all of that to bring it back to Sheila. All of those moments are giving giving me discovery. And that is beautifully awful. It's that tension, right? There's just a lot of tension wrapped up in that.

Excluding Distractions To Match Goals

SPEAKER_04 36:17

Was it Thoreau who talked about sucking the marrow out of life? Actually, no, it is because I just looked it up. I just brought it up in a way that made it seem like I actually had that had access to that in my brain. Um Walden. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, but it's the point is it's everything. I do love bone marrow. Typically don't consume it that way exactly, but it's all of it. Right. It's everything that's in there. It's not, it's not just the parts that we like, it's not just back to life. If we're gonna experience it, we gotta be, we gotta experience all of it. If we're gonna enjoy the highs, we gotta roll through the lows and discover all of the above. The part of this quote that I wanted to spend some more time on to it's so funny because the shout out to the interviewer because when when he asks the question, what do you mean by thinking? At first listen, my first thought was like, What a dumb question. But what followed? So great intuitive question because what followed was was incredible. You know, she lets off, well, what's happening? What am I concerned about? And the part that I want to zero in on. And in order to do it, what do I have to exclude or avoid? That's huge. I mean, we've talked about this before because it's this is a recurring theme, but like, you know, just asking that question, what's in my way? And am I really willing to, you know, remove it? So if we're really about the art life, as as David Lynch calls it, we have to audit our time, our resources, our energy, all of it. And we have to be willing to take a scalpel to remove anything that doesn't belong, that isn't in alignment with our values and what we want to do with however much time we have here. I was talking to a friend of mine who I'm not going to name. I don't think he listens to the podcast, but just in case, I don't want to throw him under the bus. But this was last week. And this is a friend of mine who has he's a man child, he's in his early 40s, he's he's got a lot of flexibility with his with his time. And he, like me, is very prone to picking up new hobbies. So he went on a date and went bowling and bowling like a 150 or something. And he texts me, he's like, I love bowling. Cut to the next day. He's he texts me a picture of his custom bowling ball with his initials monogrammed on it, you know what I mean? No, but I did reply with a uh um Big Lobowski meme with uh, you know, Jesus. So good. John Tuturo in the room is yeah, unmatched. But I just so this is somebody who he's got a lot of creative aspirations, and he's very talented, but he hasn't to this point been able to execute consistently on any one of the four or five things that he could have really been amazing at and still could? I'm not gonna say that that ship has sailed completely. But I just asked him, we're close, and I said, imagine how that short film you're working on, imagine how the soundtrack that you've been working, your the projects, the the unfinished projects that you have in the works right now, like is becoming a good bowler going to get you closer to what you aspire to be? So the question really comes down to you know, do my actions match my goals?

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

And if not, it's okay. But one of those two things needs to be adjusted. Either we need to increase our actions to be consistent with what achieving our goals is going to require.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:08

Or we need to just lower the goal. Because when those things aren't in alignment, that's a great recipe for a lot of regret. When they are in alignment, that's a great recipe for fulfillment and peace of mind and being okay with whatever we are saying yes and no to. Every time we say yes to one thing in this moment, you and I are saying yes to recording this podcast. That means we are, by extension, saying no to everything else that we could be doing with our time in this moment. Yeah. And that's a lot of things. A lot of things, an infinite number of things that any one of us could be doing at any moment in time. So whatever we're choosing to invest our energy into, it better be consistent with our our overreaching goals. And I realize I'm using sort of some, you know, whatever, achievement-driven vernacular here, but replace that with whatever's true for you, dear listener. But those two things need to really need they need to be in alignment. They need to be in alignment. And so if we are serious about making authentic work that we are putting into the world, that we want to be seen, that we want to have, you know, an impact of some kind, again, fill in the blank with whatever's true for you. But if that's real, if that's a real desire, if that's a real, you know, compulsion that we have to do, then it means, to Sheila's point, that we're going to have to exclude and avoid a lot of other things. And a lot of the things that need to be excluded or avoided aren't necessarily, they're not inherently bad things. There's nothing wrong with bowling. Bowling's cool, I guess. But how much time do you want to put into the things that aren't necessities that aren't in full alignment with our true calling is the question that we have to ask.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

Yeah, I've been I've been thinking through that a lot in the last probably month and a half as I haven't been making much art as much as I want to, just kind of being in that funk of figuring out where I want to go next with things. But I could either sit around in that time and just be frustrated with myself and upset and not do anything, or I can be proactive in things that keep my thinking focused on what I'm doing. So I've literally been pitching literary agents for my novel that I wrote a few years back and rewriting my query letter and rewriting my synopsis and just doing all kinds of research and things. But in that whole moment, I'm still thinking about the work. I'm in my studio, I'm looking at work, I'm thinking through, I'm making notes, I'm writing down ideas and things in the process of the other thing. Right. And then I've also been, as we've talked about, you and I personally, I've been building an app from all the curriculum from my mentorship program. But because I've been constantly in that and getting stories from artists who've been in my program and then thinking about stories while I'm building in and writing things for my curriculum, it's still keeping me focused on those things because it'd be really easy for me to spend three or four days, three or four hours a day watching films, watching movies and just not just brain wasting. You know what I mean? And just being frustrated. That that's I don't know if there's anything more easy to do today than to just end up streaming film and TV for hours on end when you don't feel like doing anything. I mean, doom scrolling is probably even easier. Those, those, well, those things I would consider I would kind of throw that into, like, or just doom scrolling for two hours and then your brain is drained and you don't have any energy to even focus or think about anything. Because usually, if you're an artist and you're doom scrolling, you're not really you know, doom scrolling fail videos for three hours. You know, you're kind of doom scrolling the artist on your feed and what they're doing and the accomplishments they may be making and watching their highlight reels and thinking that they've got 50 years up on you because their highlight reels. Reels when they might be in the same place you're in, and then you don't want to make work for a week. Yeah. There's a lot of danger in those in those things. I guess what I'm kind of getting at in that is that I don't want to miss the discovery. So even in the moments where I'm not really like able to just jump into my work, I'm trying to find ways to be creative outside of it that still keep my mind in a creative mode. Yeah. If that makes sense. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

Even just considering that idea of discovery itself, I referenced this a while back. I read a book a few months ago called The Explorer's Gene, and I've referenced it a couple of times in previous episodes. But one of the biggest takeaways that has really stuck with me from that book was how often how 99% of every discovery was off course at any given moment. And that all of the detours, all of the mistakes, all the fails, all the things that didn't go well were necessary steps to figure out ultimately what did work or what was going to get Explorer from point A to point B. That's super relevant, is just to again back to perspective, that idea of it's okay if I'm not on course right now. Realizing that the next piece that I make that is linear in its creation, where A leads to B, leads to C, leads to D, and we're done, will be the first.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Yeah.

Nourishment Rejection And Why Persist

SPEAKER_04 45:51

And I say that acknowledging that it probably will never happen. And I'm not even sure that I would want it to if it could. Those detours are necessary, you know. And so when we're in those low moments, oh here I go talking about feelings again. When we're in those low moments, just reminding ourselves that this is part of the journey. Yeah. All right, let's listen to our next quote, Ty. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Why do I still make things? My sense is I make things because it nourishes me. I make the work because the work is fulfilling. Now the work doesn't do everything. The studio doesn't do everything, but it it does a lot.

SPEAKER_06 46:36

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 46:41

Freaking love that. Well, you should. I mean, you're the one that that added it to our list today.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Yeah, V V had I saw that because V had put it up today on Instagram, and I was like, yeah. Because I think I was as I was working on my app, I was reading through a bunch of my curriculum and I was reading through notes that I had made about my own frustrations and the moments where I'd just been like, why in the hell am I doing this? Why am I putting myself through this? Those hard, hard artist moments. I was at the Kurt Vonnegut Museum in Indianapolis just uh last month with my buddy Jeremy when we were there, and I sent you a picture that they had inside this glass box, and it was a box, like an old shoe box. It was just torn and kind of ripped up on the edges. I'll put a picture of it up in the uh YouTube video for this cast. And it was his rejection box from all the rejection letters that he had, and he had it written on there, I think it said rejections. And I I just broke. I was just in tears. And I was just like, you know, I'm here I am in a room that is celebrating one of my literary heroes, and the fact that his rejection box was right there. So I'm in the room based on his success. And I'm staring at all the rejections in a box.

unknown 48:03

Right?

SPEAKER_05 48:04

It's like there's just a moment of hope. Not that I don't have hope in my work or myself as an artist, but there's just to be in that room with one of your heroes and just go, it took them, it was a journey for them too. It just feels good. Feels good. You feel like you're part of that class because you're like, Yeah, I'm getting rejected too, bro. No, it's like I just want to wrap my arms around the first Vonnegut photo I saw and just like welcome into my arms and go, yeah, I'm just like you, man. And so, man, just why do I still make things? Well, because it nourishes me. That's why I'm doing this, and that's what I tell myself in those moments where I just wanted to throw the towel in and go, I can't do this anymore. It's too heartbreaking when the hard things happen. It is heartbreaking. Yeah. But then I go, man, the next morning I wake up, I go, God, I want to get back in the studio so fast because it nourishes me. The work is filling. Now I love that he follows that up with it, doesn't do everything, but it sure does a lot.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

Side note, I just resolved a question I was trying to answer earlier, and I just need to put it in. So this would be great. Consider this exhibit A of Naven's brains. Yeah, yeah, it's a dark place you don't want to visit at night, but exhibit A of when while we're doing other things, yeah, ideas come to us. Things get resolved even when we're not thinking about them actively. I wanted to ask you because I know Jeremy a little bit, having uh hung out with him a couple times. Yeah, and I know he's a very, you know, deeply feeling, heart-centered individual who probably wasn't as affected emotionally by that specifically. How did he respond in that moment when you were I mean, are we just are tears just welling up? Let's talk about feelings. Are tears just welling up or are we are we streaming oh no? I was really obvious that you were okay. Yeah, I don't really respond in that moment.

SPEAKER_05 49:56

I'm a I don't care if people see me no tears streaming, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_04 50:01

I know you're not gonna be able to do it. No, he was seeming to be crying. I'm curious, how did he Jeremy was around the corner?

Studio Sanctuary And Work Reveals Meaning

SPEAKER_05 50:05

Okay. He was around the corner reading uh at the museum's fabulous. It was like we spent quite a bit of time there because I we had to read every little moment letter typed letter that he wrote to other people or politicians or whatever. I mean, it was just insane. I highly recommend it. If you're ever in Indianapolis, you cannot miss the Vonnegut Museum. It's it's incredible. Um he was around the corner, but I stood there for a while. Um, and I remember I when I I speak out loud, I've talked about this before at museums and things. I'm not one to hide my emotion. And I'm looking at this glass case as a bunch of things, and I come around the corner and I go, His rejection slips. And it even says, like, be quiet, like in the room, kind of like a library in the room. But I'm going, Oh my gosh, and I'm looking for Jeremy. Where are you gonna show you this? Because he knows. I I he's my he's my buddy, so we talk about this stuff quite a bit. So when he I waited until he came around the corner and I was going, gotta come see this. Look at this, it's insane, you know. And he was like, Wow, he knew what it meant for me. Um, so it was a pretty powerful moment.

SPEAKER_04 51:12

I want to zero in on that last, the last part of that quote.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

The studio doesn't do everything, but it does a lot. And I was just reflecting on how I don't understand exactly where let me rephrase that. Let me start over. I don't understand exactly what it does, what that nourishment is, or even why I need it. I just know that I do. I know that it's significant. And I know this because when I don't get it, I don't feel whole. I'm a little twitchy, I'm a little off. If I go more than a couple days without making something. And as we've discussed many times before, you know, we're not always in our studio, we're not always in the optimal place to do what maybe what we're doing on a regular basis, but there's always a scale-down, you know, travel right version of making, of writing about the work that that can be done. But I just know I again, I just I don't I don't understand it. I don't need to understand it. The only thing that I need to know for sure is that I need it and that it does something for me that nothing else does.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:29

Well, that's why I call it my sanctuary, my place of worship, and my playground, you know, because it is a very spiritual place that evokes depth and worship for me. And it's also my playground. It's a place where I can be four years old with not a care in the world, and I can just have absolute freedom and play. Like it's really a massive combination of both those things. So you think about it, if that's in my if that's in my brain space and personality as an artist, that it means that for me. That if I'm spending too much time away from it, you can only imagine what is missing. And I think that's something to really think about. Now, that doesn't mean, right, studio is where you make art. Doesn't matter if it's a loft, a building, a warehouse, a bedroom, a bathroom, living room that has to be cleaned up, you know, every day when everybody comes home. It's just that's your place you make work. So think about when you're not there and you're not in it, what is missing for you?

SPEAKER_04 53:30

This is an idea, Ty, that I've been reflecting on a lot lately, which is beyond what does the process and what does the studio practice do for me or what's the point. It's back to this idea of something that we've discussed, you know, many times before and certainly will again, which is what is the work about? And I've been thinking a lot about, you know, what the studio has taught me, what art has taught me, and just the benefit. I guess this is maybe as close as I can get to putting my finger on what that nourishment is or one version of the nutrients, you know, that come from making art. But it's the way that our work continues to tell us what it's about versus the other way around. I think that's a little bit about what Bradford's referring to. That's the small voice. Yeah. The big voice might be here's what I'm trying to do with this, here's what I'm trying to say. Great. There's a there's a place for that. That's a that's a reasonable starting point. But ultimately, the work tells us what it's about. You know, for me, understanding how my experience with recovery and my personal transformation as an individual, you know, going from um an addict that almost, you know, lost my life and or my freedom to what my life is today, it's it's been so nourishing to be able to really understand something that I didn't at first. I didn't know. I didn't, I didn't have a grand plan to say what I am now attempting to say with my work, but the work told me. And that's that's such a such a beautiful, beautiful thing that I'm yeah, so thankful for.

Listener Questions And Closing Words

SPEAKER_05 55:25

Well, you um, so a couple days ago, it might have been last week, you put up an Instagram video that for me was extremely powerful. And I know for a number of our friends, artist friends, it was it was very powerful. And it was just a short reel where you were celebrating your 24th year, right? 24th year of recovery, which congratulations, just a beautiful thing. And you were sharing your story and your process with work and really the nourishment that it's brought you in this journey that is now at 24 years of fight and as well, not just with fight, but of giving back the way that I've watched you and observed you give back in that community, um, in the recovery community with numerous addicts of different levels, just been incredible to watch. And knowing you now with that and knowing your work and process, to me, it's just a an absolutely deeply motivating thing to see all of those things kind of come to fruition in one and that nourishment being found in the studio, but also recognizing that it doesn't do everything. Because I know your life outside the studio, too. There's a lot of purpose and intention. And so you have to have that balance of all of those things, knowing the studio doesn't do everything. There's things outside of it that does, but the studio sure does a lot.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:53

Preach. But I highly suggest everybody go to Nathan's Instagram and watch that reel.

SPEAKER_04 56:58

All right, so let's wrap this up. We talked about how making is hard, how it's not always fun. We talked about, in spite of that, it also gives us a lot. It slows our thinking to get to the idea. Is making in and of itself is the thinking, and that it nourishes us in ways that we we can't even comprehend. Any closing thoughts, Ty? Anything you want to add? Do you feel complete? Any other feelings you want to share? No, I think I've I've shared quite a bit of feelings today.

SPEAKER_05 57:24

I'm gonna go I'm gonna go lay on the couch outside and cry the rest of the afternoon.

SPEAKER_04 57:28

It's great. It's great. So here's some um some questions to consider, dear listener. What is your relationship with your creative process?

SPEAKER_02 57:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:39

It's a really good thing to ponder. It's a really good thing to back to that idea of perspective. It's a really useful thing to consider and really sit with. What's my relationship, not just with the work, not just with the result? What's my relationship with my creative process? And how can we embed more perspective into the here and now? How can we remove ourselves from the frustration, all the moments when things aren't going well, to keep keep perspective, to keep that high-level view of, yeah, but it's it's going somewhere. I was thinking earlier, just as an encouraging thought, I suppose. But if you've ever completed anything that you are happy with, even just once, you know that there is something on the other side of discovery. We don't need to know what. We don't need to know when. We probably don't, but something is on the other side of discovery.

SPEAKER_05 58:37

We would love to also hear from you out there, artists, and just share with us any of your own experiences with making and thinking. Let us know what are your processes, what are the ways that you kind of navigate these things that we talked about? Are you living in a state of discovery, or is it something that you're really kind of struggling with in your work? We'd we'd love to hear from you for sure. And as we always say, just make art. And we're gonna leave you with Sheila Hicks again, just kind of giving you a little bit of encouragement to uh finish your week with. So we hope you have a great day and go make some art.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

To be alive is to sort of discover. So hang in there. Because you never know what the next discovery might be. Hang in there.